Ryan-
Most of this problem is the result of people that are either apathetic and lazy (dumping these cats) or people that don’t have the financial resources to get their cats fixed. You’re going to handle it you’re way. The only way to reduce feral cat numbers and the numbers of cats that die in shelters long term is to stop them from reproducing. If there was an easier solution it would have been implemented 50 years ago.

William,

I lease some farm land that we hunt on. People dump thier cats frequently on it. If I spay and neuter all of the dumped cats I would have accumuliated about 50 running around killing native birds etc.. How is that better for the native wildlife than just killing them?

Ryan-
Cats, including socialized “pet” cats, kill a couple of hundred million songbirds a year, not just feral cats. My point about my cat Chance is that feral cats can become good pets with a little compassion and time invested in them. The problem is so huge unless there is a nationwide comprehensive trap-spay-neuter- release program there will be no headway made on the issue. Killing them for target practice is not a solution either

Sadly, little has changed since the “corporation” film was produced in 2004. Corporations seem even more insidious when one considers the big ones – like Exxon – whose majority of stock is owned by yet other corporations, and they in turn are owned by other corporations, as well. Then all those corporations have first access and make huge campaign contributions to elected officials, and are able to on so many levels convince them what they do is in the best interests of their constituents (so far corporations cannot vote in elections but sure as hell have the ability to influence who runs, is elected and what legislation goes forward or does not.) So, it is inevitable that there is no social conscience in the corporation, even though it is recognized as “a person” for many legal purposes. The Founding Fathers of America are rolling over in their graves – gotta wonder what Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Washington would say about all this.

ExxonMobil with offices in Irving, TX also ought to tell you something.

William,

Here is an interesting fact for you.. Feral cats kill a couple hundred million songbirds a year. Whether or not your cat is nice has nothing to do with this conversation.

Thanks, DB. Always refreshing to encounter a “middle of the road” perspective.

They’re already talking about removing wolves with the help of WS in Utaaaaa. As if wolves will ever have a chance to form breeding pairs in Peabrain Peay land!

This playing around with numbers game looks like a “setting the scene” for delisting. Further down in the article there are quite a few revealing statements, like “explosion of grizzly bears”, “there are too many” etc. etc. I think it would make sense. Surely quite a lot of people longing for a bear pelt or a set of claws, maybe a nice head on the wall? Oh, sorry, I forgot, they will of course eat all those excessive grizz.

Oops, Dr. Halfpenny’s URL: https://www.tracknature.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=IS0034&Category_Code=wfch

Merely for those interested, this link is to Dr. James Halfpenny’s website, the page to order his wolves of YNP pack charts. these charts show photos of individuals and their relationships and other info all on a nifty 8.5×11″ laminated page. very useful for watching wolves in the park. He also has several books about the wildlife of the Rockies, including tracking guides. Might find some good data in his work as well.

FYI, Dan Stahler works for YNP; Kathie Lynch is a volunteer watcher and monitors the wolves of northern YNP, Lamar Valley area in particular and is a BOD member for the Wolf Recovery Foundation.

You should also find some pack size and individual wolf size info from the USFWS web site: https://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/

https://www.tracknature.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=IS0034&Category_Code=wfch

Never underestimate the power of ignorance.

Immer,

I read a bit more last night. It seems we both might be correct, based on what appears to be varying data provided by different agencies. There is considerable variability. WI DNR says their wolves weigh – “50-100 pounds/average for adult males is 75 pounds, average for adult females is 60 pounds,” which is lower than what you cite for MN wolves. Source: https://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/er/mammals/wolf/wolf_facts.htm

Since WI gets their wolves exclusively from in migrating MN sources, how can they generally be smaller?

NRM wolves according to Mech in the 2009 delisting rule: In the NRM, cites adult male gray wolves average over 100 pounds, but may weigh up to 130 pounds. Females weigh slightly less than males.(Mech as referenced in the Final NRM delisting rule, April 2, 2009, 74 FR 15123).

Stahler, et al. in a nutritional study refers to average YNP wolves at 100 pounds. Mollie’s Pack, a prominent YNP pack that feeds on the bison, has individual male wolves that are notably larger according to Kathy Lynch, a recognized authority on YNP wolves and pack observer. I think Ralph has specific individual wolf data for some larger Mollie’s members, somewhere on this forum in a past discussions.

Curiously the most recent delisting rule proposal for the Western Great Lakes only gives stats for WI wolves, with: ++The average weight of
male wolves in Wisconsin is 35 kg (77
lb) and ranges from 26 to 46 kg (57 to
102 lb), while females average 28 kg (62
lb) and range from 21 to 34 kg (46 to 75
lb) (Wisconsin Department of Natural
Resources (WI DNR) 1999).++

And pack sizes range for all three states as follows:
++Winter
pack size in Michigan’s Upper
Peninsula (UP) averaged from 2.7 to 4.6
wolves during the 1995 through 2005
period and ranged from 2 to 14 wolves
per pack (Huntzinger et al. 2005). Pack
size in Wisconsin is similar, averaging
3.8 to 4.1 wolves per pack, and ranging
from 2 to 11 wolves in winter 2004–05
(Wydeven and Wiedenhoeft 2005). In
Minnesota the average pack size found
in the 1988–89, 1997–98, and 2003–04
winter surveys was higher—5.55, 5.4,
and 5.3 wolves per pack, respectively
(Erb and Benson 2004).++

Click to access FRPropDelistMay2011.pdf

Note: Erb, as stated in my previous post, dropped MN mean pack size to 4.9, for the 2008 estimate, thus partially contributing to a resulting lower total MN population than the prior estimate period for 2004.

At least one FWS reference shows average NRM pack size at 10, or over twice the size of GL packs as recently reported. Source: https://www.fws.gov/home/feature/2007/qandasgraywolfbiology.pdf ; see Item 12.

Immer,

I was a bit rough on the size difference – but there definitely is one. About a year ago or a little longer there was quite a bit of discussion about the difference – lots of stats and all. Maybe I should have said 3/4, or something like the ambiguous stat that the NRM wolves are a third larger than the GL. Sorry I can’t recall exactly. I would not even want to venture whether harvest statistics are representative of the general population.

As for pack size, one significant reason the MN curremt total wolf population estimate is lower than the previous 5 year estimate is that pack size in the modeling was reduced. I can’t find it now, but the mean was like 4.9, down from about 5.5 or so in earlier survey estimates (I spoke to one of the MN DNR guys doing the survey stats, who informed me of this.).

I think the NRM pack size has been generally larger, with a mean of some where between 7-9. Maybe someone with a bit more time and current knowledge can tell us, if I am off on that.

As for how many wolves need to participate in a kill. Just showing up is sometimes enough to confuse prey, block exits and prevent escape, even though two or three may be the designated kill team.

So, I will still venture individual wolf size, and larger numbers “involved” in prey attack may differ between the two populations, and may be significant under certain circumstances. I was just speculating on the possible factors and effect on a horse attack based on the conversation with your MN friend, who did not seem so worried about risk to her horse.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/on-air/as-seen-on/The_Fight_To_Save_The_Geese_New_York-122375444.html

Yeah, a hunter illegally killed him. He was taken away from those who enjoyed seeing Romeo in the wild.

Sadly, things did no end up well for Romeo