The Not-So-Traditional View: Does Your Particular Belief About Hell Really Have Church History On Its Side? – Part 5

As we have seen in the previous parts of this series, the modern, metaphorical view of hell has a weak historical pedigree. Of course, it also has no biblical leg to stand on. 1 For more on the profound weaknesses of the modern, metaphorical view, see “The Many and Varied Problems with the Modern, Metaphorical View of Eternal Conscious Hell“. But church history is the strongest argument that the doctrine of eternal conscious hell has. Therefore, the more it can be shown that the historical view of eternal conscious hell entailed physical torture in (typically) literal fire and God’s retributive wrath and vengeance, across the centuries and across the various traditions within Christendom, the more that any foundation for the more palatable forms of eternal conscious hell lose any appeal whatsoever.

At least annihilationism – and universalism, to be fair – have some notable early church presence.  And at least annihilationists don’t pretend to be part of the dominant tradition in the first place.
Continue reading “The Not-So-Traditional View: Does Your Particular Belief About Hell Really Have Church History On Its Side? – Part 5”

References
1 For more on the profound weaknesses of the modern, metaphorical view, see “The Many and Varied Problems with the Modern, Metaphorical View of Eternal Conscious Hell“.

The Not-So-Traditional View: Does Your Particular Belief About Hell Really Have Church History On Its Side? (Part 4)

It has been a while since I initially published Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3 of the series “The Not-So-Traditional View: Does Your Particular Belief About Hell Really Have Church History On Its Side?” I intentionally structured it such that Parts 1-3 made a full, complete narrative, and yet it could also be expanded upon later. Not surprisingly, this topic has only become more relevant as time has gone by.

I began this series in order to tackle the modern, metaphorical view of eternal conscious hell, i.e. the variations that attempt to remove the most uncomfortable elements of the traditional view of hell without sacrificing its eternal, conscious nature. I have no good things to say about this collection of views (see notes below for more on that). 1 For a detailed case against the modern, metaphorical view, see “The Many and Varied Problems with the Modern, Metaphorical View of Eternal Conscious Hell“. For more on the version increasingly held in Eastern Orthodox circles, where both righteous and wicked are in heaven with God and his love (“love” used very loosely) torments the wicked because they hate him, see Part 3 of this series. See also “The Modern Eastern Orthodox View and the Hellfire of God’s Love“. None whatsoever.

Continue reading “The Not-So-Traditional View: Does Your Particular Belief About Hell Really Have Church History On Its Side? (Part 4)”

References
1 For a detailed case against the modern, metaphorical view, see “The Many and Varied Problems with the Modern, Metaphorical View of Eternal Conscious Hell“. For more on the version increasingly held in Eastern Orthodox circles, where both righteous and wicked are in heaven with God and his love (“love” used very loosely) torments the wicked because they hate him, see Part 3 of this series. See also “The Modern Eastern Orthodox View and the Hellfire of God’s Love“.

More Reasons Why Genesis 2:17 Is Not Good Evidence For “Spiritual Death”

A Refresher On The Significance of Genesis 2:17 Regarding “Death” and Hell

Genesis 2:17 is one of the most significant passages regarding the Bible’s teachings on death and its connection to what hell is like. This is because many traditionalists argue that death language in the Bible is meant metaphorically to describe a conscious state of being separated from God, rather than becoming like a corpse. This is often referred to as “spiritual death.” And Genesis 2:17 stands out because it is arguably the only passage in the Bible that could be seen as actually tying death language to conscious separation from God (when cross-referenced with the events of Genesis 3, that is).

Other passages that are commonly cited to prove that death means conscious separation from God, such as Ephesians 2:1, make no actual reference to separation from God. It is assumed that being dead means being conscious while separated from God, and this is then read back into the passage to show that the passage teaches that death means being conscious while separated from God. Don’t believe me? Read Ephesians 2:1 (and the surrounding verses) and then tell me where it gives any definition of the word “dead” at all. 1 There is also another metaphorical interpretation of passages like Ephesians 2:1, sometimes used in Reformed circles, which says that being “dead” describes one’s inability to seek or know God apart from regeneration. This view has some of the same problems, since you must define “dead” apart from the text and read this metaphorical meaning back in. But this alternative view does not challenge annihilationism, since its metaphorical meaning of death cannot describe the punishment of the damned in hell. For more on this, see “A Common Reformed Interpretation of Ephesians 2:1 Negates A Common Argument Against Annihilationism“.

Genesis 2:17 is different, at least on the surface, because there is an actual line of reasoning as to what the passage describes and its use of death language. Therefore, this idea that the Bible is using death language to mean conscious separation from God relies heavily (or even exclusively) on Genesis 2:17. 2 The one other passage in the same class as Genesis 2:17 is the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-31. For more on this, see “Prolepsis and Hell: A Matter of Life and Death – Part 3“.

Key Things To Take Into Account

The Following Is In Addition To Previous Rethinking Hell Material

The core arguments for why this is not a good interpretation of Genesis 2:17 have previously been covered in past Rethinking Hell resources, most notably in Peter Grice’s 2017 article on this passage, “Warned of Sin’s Wages: A Concise Explanation of Death in Genesis 2:17 and Romans 6:23“. What I will do below is give a brief overview of these arguments, and then give additional reasons to really drive the point home. Genesis 2:17 is not warning of conscious separation from God. It is not defining death in any way that is materially different from what happens to the body (but not the soul – Matthew 10:28) of a person who dies in this life.

The Traditionalist Case From Genesis 2:17 Is Refuted So Long As Physical Death Is A Reasonable Interpretation

For the Genesis 2:17 argument for eternal conscious hell to fail, it is not necessary that we show that so-called spiritual death, i.e. conscious separation from God, cannot be in view in this passage.

I will attempt to do this, or at least come close to doing this by making a case that we really shouldn’t consider the spiritual death interpretation to even have a reasonable chance of being correct.

However, even if I am not successful, the key takeaway is that there is nothing in the passage to actually tie death and separation together. The only argument the traditionalist offers is “what else could God have meant by ‘die’?” So if it is established that it is reasonable that God meant literal, physical death in Genesis 2:17, then there no longer is a reason to think that this passage affirmatively shows that death means separation.

I bring this up because in many discussions on this passage, traditionalists will say that they spiritually died by being separated from God, but they are not necessarily denying that physical death was also in view in Genesis 2:17. Charles Spurgeon, for example, affirmed spiritual death but also said that this passage was fulfilled because man became “legally dead” on that day because he became doomed to (physically) die. 3 Charles Spurgeon, “Free Will – A Slave,” [Sermon] New Park Street Chapel, London, December 2, 1855, https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/free-will-a-slave/#flipbook/ (accessed August 30, 2025). For another example, see Terry Mortenson, “Genesis 2:17 – You  “Answers in Genesis”, Answers in Genesis, May 2, 2007, https://answersingenesis.org/death-before-sin/genesis-2-17-you-shall-surely-die/(accessed August 30, 2025). In this case, they are not arguing that Genesis 2:17 establishes that death means separation. They already believe that death can mean conscious separation from God, and therefore are simply interpreting the passage to include that. And such an approach to scripture interpretation, and reasoning in general, is perfectly valid. But it also requires assuming a premise, and that premise – that death can mean conscious separation from God in the Bible – is the very thing in question.

Be on the look out for this, because not every time that spiritual death comes up regarding Adam and Eve is it meant as an argument for spiritual death and against annihilationism in the first place.

Evangelical Conditionalism Does Not Require the Spiritual Death Interpretation Being False

There are multiple, biblical reasons to believe in annihilationism that are independent from one another. The death and life language in the Bible is a compelling reason to believe in annihilationism. If it is established that death really can mean conscious separation from God in scripture, then this would at least damage the case from death/life language in the Bible. However, there are still other reasons to believe in annihilationism that are completely unaffected, such as the language of destruction (e.g. Matthew 10:28, 13:40, 2 Peter 2:6), and the biblical vision of eternity making eternal conscious hell untenable (which you can read more about in the article “The Biblical Vision of Eternity“). So annihilationism – or evangelical conditionalism as we like to call it here – does not stand or fall on what follows below.

Recap Of Core Arguments Made In Prior Material

The following is a quick recap of what was argued in Peter Grice’s 2017 article, as well as other Rethinking Hell sources when noted. What I will argue for below is in addition to these points and largely presumes their conclusions. Links to these resources can be found in the notes below.

  • The language of “on the day”/”in the day” and “on that day you shall surely die” is not meant woodenly in Hebrew to mean within that 24-hour, calendar day. It can be used loosely and idiomatically, the way English has some (albeit different) idioms where a day is a long time (like “back in my day…”). It is something we see elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, Deuteronomy 27:2-4 has Moses give the commands of how the Israelites were to build an altar on Mount Ebal the day they cross the Jordan. But such a trek would have been effectively impossible to complete in a day. 4 For more on this, see, “RH Shorts: Genesis 2:17“. And even if it were possible, Joshua 8:30-34 shows us that they didn’t set up the altar until over a week later, after conquering Jericho. Nevertheless, v. 34 emphasizes that Joshua fully obeyed what Moses had commanded.
  • Death sentences elsewhere in the Old Testament use the same construct and language, despite the death not happening on the literal day. On that literal, calendar day, the death sentence takes effect, and so it was normal to speak of the death proleptically as occurring on that day. For example, in 1 Kings 2:37, Solomon warns that Shimei will die the day he leaves Jerusalem. Later, when Shimei leaves Jerusalem, and when more than 24 hours would have passed and Solomon recounted his command before executing him, Solomon once again spoke in terms of how Shimei was to die the day he left Jerusalem (vv. 42-45). In like manner, Adam and Eve were sentenced to death on that day.
  • A number of theologians and Old Testament scholars who are not annihilationists agree that what is in view in Genesis 2:17 is not spiritual death. It is often from there that we get insight as to the way Hebrew constructs the language of death sentences (i.e. “dying you shall die”) and use of the Hebrew yom (English “day”).

Even Their “Spiritual Death” Caused Their Physical Death

Before we look at the additional arguments against Genesis 2:17 being about spiritual death, there is a considerable weakness with using this passage to defend the traditional view against annihilationism even if the spiritual death view is true.

Adam and Eve did not forever stay physically alive but also separated from God. They suffered physical death. And that physical death was directly caused by them being separated from God. Them being kicked out of the garden meant that they couldn’t eat from the tree of life. And this was not a side effect; God kicked them out specifically for that purpose (Genesis 3:22-24).

Even if we were to grant that Genesis 2:17 uses death as a metaphor for conscious separation from God – and this is the only Old Testament passage I know of where anyone even claims the Old Testament uses death language this way – the fact that this separation directly caused physical death would still take much of the force out of any argument against annihilationism based on spiritual death. The one time spiritual death would actually be shown to happen, in the entire Bible, would be an instance where that spiritual death explicitly and intentionally leads to physical death! This spiritual death was not a perpetual state, but one that God specifically instituted as a temporary state to cause Adam and Eve to die literally and not just spiritually.

Physical Death, Not Spiritual, Is A Curse That God Pronounces On Adam

In this debate, we are trying to determine if Genesis 2:17 was about physical death or spiritual death (i.e. conscious separation from God). It is undeniable that Adam and Eve physically died as a result of their sin (Genesis 3:22-24). And while the meaning of “death” is debated, it is also true that Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden and their relationship with God was damaged.

But of these two events that (for the sake of argument) could be called death, the literal deaths of their bodies and their separation from God, only one is actually a curse that God pronounces upon them.

In Genesis 3:16-19, at no point does God ever even mention anything about separation, their harmed relationship, or anything along the lines of what would be called spiritual death. But God does pronounce that the final curse upon Adam (and Eve by extension) is that he would return to the earth from where he was taken. In other words, physical death.

So let us think about what happened. The text shows us God warning of a fate upon someone if the person did something, and then it shows God telling the person that since they did the thing, they would suffer a form of that warned-of fate. Wouldn’t we normally expect this to mean that the text is tying those two things together?

Because that is what is happening here. God warned Adam that when he sinned, he would die. Then, after Adam sinned, God pronounced several curses on him, including a form of death (being physical death).

If God was warning of immediate so-called spiritual death in Genesis 2:17, why would he then decline to pronounce this curse of spiritual death on Adam when Adam did sin? Why would God not only do that, but then also go out of his way to tell Adam he was cursed with the other kind of death – the kind that he supposedly did not warn of in Genesis 2:17 in the first place?

It is not impossible that God was speaking of spiritual death in Genesis 2:17 and then spoke of an entirely different kind of death in Genesis 3:19. But this really should cause any reader to take a step back. It is far more reasonable that both passages, the warning of a curse and the resulting curse, would be about the same curse.

Adam And Eve Were Only Partially “Dead”

In normal human language, being dead or alive is a binary state. If you’re slightly alive, then you are not dead.

Adam and Eve were not cut off from God to nearly the degree that conscious people in hell are supposed to be. They experienced the same earthly graces of God that people enjoy now. Eve recognized her children as being gifts from the Lord (Genesis 4:25). It is also common for expositors to notice that despite them being “spiritually dead,” God cared enough to provide them covering by shedding blood and therefore making a sacrifice on their behalf in Genesis 3:21. Furthermore, Cain, who would have been just as spiritually dead as his parents and who was in a bad place with God (at least at the time), spoke with God directly. He seemed to have a connection to the Lord that believers don’t typically have!

Believers today are said to be alive (e.g. Ephesians 2:5). Being “dead” was a former state (v. 1). But we are still not in the garden. Eden has not been restored in any tangible sense. We have a connection to God that unbelievers do not, but in many ways we still resemble those who are still “dead.” The fact that we are not as close to God now as we will be undeniable. Otherwise, why would the Bible tell us that we will get to see God’s face in Revelation 22:4 – something even Moses couldn’t do and that no human can do in this life (Exodus 33:18-20)? So are we as believers partially “dead”?

An aside, I know it sounds dark and even tragic to speak of believers still being in a sort of probationary period in our relationship with God, even when we are saved and children of God. What sinful, human parent would treat their son or daughter that way, let alone our heavenly Father?

But we must remember that we will have eternal life with God. No amount of finite time, not even a googolplex of years, can even be measured against the infinite. It is beyond infinitesimal in comparison. Even an entire lifetime of us knowing God only in part is a speck in light of eternity. Even loving and nurturing parents might go away for a romantic getaway and leave their child with Grandma for a night. And given the math of our lives vs. eternity, I’d say that any feeling of distance from God in this life is really more just the equivalent of when a small child wants to be picked up by their dad when he gets home from work, and said child needs to wait a few seconds for the dad to put down his laptop case. Eternity makes all the difference.

Now with that in mind, if Adam and Eve eventually came to salvation (as some do believe happened), were they considered alive when that happened? But then, they would have still been outside of the garden – and the spiritual death view (at least generally) says that being outside of the garden and God’s immediate presence is what makes them dead.

Are we all then in varying degrees of death and life? Are believers today partially dead while partially alive? Are unbelievers even partially alive since God shows them his common grace (like Luke 6:35 talks about)?

Admittedly, this dilemma goes a bit beyond just Adam and Eve and to the idea of spiritual death more broadly. Nevertheless, Adam and Eve are a good example of this dilemma. If death means conscious separation from God, and therefore life means a relationship with God, how can this be binary when there can be varying degrees of closeness in a relationship?

Prolepsis in the Bible

There is a lot of prolepsis in the Bible, and we have some resources here on the topic. 5For more on this, see  “Prolepsis: A Matter of Life and Death” Parts 1Part 2, and Part 3. While a view more emphatic on physical death in this passage might not technically be prolepsis, it is proleptic in nature.

Prolepsis is a figure of speech that is common in both the Bible and modern language too. It describes a future event in the present tense, usually for emphasis. When someone is being walked down death row to be executed, someone might shout “dead man walking.” The person isn’t actually dead. But they will be soon.

This figure of speech fits a lot of non-literal uses of death language in the Bible, such as Ephesians 2:1. We also see it later in Genesis, in 20:3 when God tells Abimelech that he is “dead man” despite him clearly being alive. He was doomed to die – if he had not responded to God’s warning and fixed the situation he was in.

For God to use similar language in Genesis 2:17 makes sense. God would be warning Adam and Eve that if they sinned then their death sentence would be issued on that very day, and on that day they would become doomed to die. And we know that on that very day, they were cut off from the tree of life and no longer had access to immortality. On the day they ate of the tree, they become doomed to die like Abimelech was.

Even If Death Is Metaphorical, Spiritual Death Still Must Be Assumed

Why should we assume that, if Genesis 2:17 did mean death metaphorically, it was using it as a metaphor for the conscious separation from God that happened when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden?

Yes, many Christians already believe that death can mean conscious separation from God, and thus see the connection naturally. But what in the text indicates such a thing?

The appeal to Genesis 2:17 as being spiritual death is an argument from necessary inference. Adam and Eve didn’t actually die on the same day, so something had to happen that day which was meant by “death”. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden (probably) on that same calendar day, so therefore that is the metaphorical “death.” That’s pretty much the entire argument.

But Adam and Eve were given multiple curses. Being kicked out of God’s presence in the garden was not the only terrible thing to happen to them within that same 24 hour day.

One of the curses that God pronounced upon Adam was that he would have to eat by the sweat of his brow for all his days. Work became hard and toilsome and at times quite unfulfilling. And such work would become a central part of our lives as humans to this day.

If Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden that day, then it would also be the case that as of that day, they would have needed to work the land outside of the garden in order to be able to eat and live. God probably provided some temporary food source until their crops grew, but they still had to start working right away (and that likely was even true of food sources that God might have provided, like fruit trees or a wheat field).

It is at least likely that work becoming more difficult became relevant to them on that very calendar day. Why, then, should we believe that the curse of work was not what was meant by “death” in Genesis 2:17?

There Is No Strong Argument For Separation From God Over The Curse of Work

I imagine some will scoff and say that obviously death doesn’t mean having to work on cursed ground. But why? Why is it obvious – other than the circular assumption that death means conscious separation from God?

Is it obvious because what literal death does, what we see happens to an unconscious dead body, is nothing like this curse?

I would agree. But the same is true of spiritual death.

How is conscious separation from God – or conscious anything – like being an unconscious corpse? In either case, a person could drum up some sort of vague connection. I could say that when the ground is cursed, a lot of work is meaningless and a waste. The same is true of physical death. It is a waste of a life because humans were meant to live forever with God, not be in the grave.

If that sounds contrived, if that sounds like it sort of makes sense but is pretty ad-hoc, that’s because it is. That’s also how it sounds when it is argued that death is a metaphor for separation from God because if you don’t have God in your life, then your life is really more like a corpse without a spirit to animate it (or something like that).

Conscious (partial) separation from God wasn’t the only thing that happened on the calendar day when Adam and Eve sinned. Therefore, asserting that Genesis 2:17 must be referring to separation from God is just an assumption.

Conclusion

If you don’t already have the concept of spiritual death in mind, you really aren’t going to see it in this passage. It isn’t there. It’s not the point of the passage. It is simply an attempt to try to fix an apparent apologetic concern that arises from Genesis 2-3. And that itself is a noble goal. But honing in on one word and trying to give an ad-hoc solution is not an effective solution. The more you dig into it, as shown above, the weaker and weaker it gets.

And that is okay. Christians (and Jews) have been able to sufficiently answer this question for a long time, to the extent it was ever a problem at all (since ancient Hebrew readers probably understood it right the first time). Does it require not taking things as woodenly as possible and looking a bit at the complexities and flexibilities of language? Sure. But the same is true for saying that Adam and Eve died spiritually. At least positing that Adam and Eve died by becoming subject to physical death on that very day does not require us to change the meaning of death itself.

References
1 There is also another metaphorical interpretation of passages like Ephesians 2:1, sometimes used in Reformed circles, which says that being “dead” describes one’s inability to seek or know God apart from regeneration. This view has some of the same problems, since you must define “dead” apart from the text and read this metaphorical meaning back in. But this alternative view does not challenge annihilationism, since its metaphorical meaning of death cannot describe the punishment of the damned in hell. For more on this, see “A Common Reformed Interpretation of Ephesians 2:1 Negates A Common Argument Against Annihilationism“.
2 The one other passage in the same class as Genesis 2:17 is the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-31. For more on this, see “Prolepsis and Hell: A Matter of Life and Death – Part 3“.
3 Charles Spurgeon, “Free Will – A Slave,” [Sermon] New Park Street Chapel, London, December 2, 1855, https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/free-will-a-slave/#flipbook/ (accessed August 30, 2025). For another example, see Terry Mortenson, “Genesis 2:17 – You  “Answers in Genesis”, Answers in Genesis, May 2, 2007, https://answersingenesis.org/death-before-sin/genesis-2-17-you-shall-surely-die/(accessed August 30, 2025).
4 For more on this, see, “RH Shorts: Genesis 2:17“.
5 For more on this, see  “Prolepsis: A Matter of Life and Death” Parts 1Part 2, and Part 3.

Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism – Matthew 10:28

If you’ve ever heard of annihilationism, then you probably have heard Matthew 10:28 referenced. That is not to say that annihilationism stands or falls on this verse. On the contrary, one of annihilationism’s strengths is that multiple different passages and kinds of arguments demonstrate the doctrine independently from each other. This is true of the view broadly and of the specifically evangelical form that we hold to at Rethinking Hell.

Nevertheless, this passage is significant because it conveniently and concisely spells out the doctrine in one place. Annihilationism as a whole is basically just Matthew 10:28 when taken at face value:

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 1 Unless otherwise noted: Scripture quotations taken from the (NASB®) New American Standard Bible®, Copyright © 1960, 1971, 1977, 1995, 2020 by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission. All rights reserved. lockman.org.

In the following, I will address this verse, explain why annihilationists consider it such compelling evidence for our view, and broadly address some of the objections to the annihilationist case from this verse (and why they fall short). Resources for further study will be noted throughout and can be found in the endnotes.

Continue reading “Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism – Matthew 10:28”

References
1 Unless otherwise noted: Scripture quotations taken from the (NASB®) New American Standard Bible®, Copyright © 1960, 1971, 1977, 1995, 2020 by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission. All rights reserved. lockman.org.

The Continued Softening of Hell by Traditionalists (Gavin Ortlund, Revelation 14:9-11, and More)

Many of the same people telling us that we need to keep a stiff upper lip and accept the hard truth that the Bible teaches eternal conscious hell have a tendency to, at the same time, soften and air condition eternal conscious hell themselves. 1 The idea of “air conditioning” hell usually comes up in traditionalist polemics. For example, see “Albert Mohler, Air Conditioning Hell: How Liberalism Happens,” albertmohler.com [blog],
posted January 26, 2010, https://albertmohler.com/2010/01/26/air-conditioning-hell-how-liberalism-happens/ (accessed June 29, 2025).
That is to say, if we compare what they say eternal conscious hell consists of to what has historically been believed and to what the Bible would teach if it taught eternal conscious hell, there would be no comparison. They say that not only is the fire metaphorical, but the idea that God or his agents are actively causing extreme physical pain and suffering as punishment for sin is metaphorical as well. Hell is much more about internal turmoil, regret about being separated from God (and therefore the source of all goodness), etc.

This isn’t anything new. I and others have written about this before (see notes below). But it is a trend that continues to this day.

For example, many who are interested in the topic of annihilationism/evangelical conditionalism will be aware that Gavin Ortlund recently did a video on the topic. Notably for our purposes, Ortlund expresses a preference for annihilationism over eternal conscious hell but says that we must submit to the truth of the latter. 2 Gavin Ortlund, “Annihilationism: Why I’m Not Convinced,” YouTube video [starting 28:00], posted May 19, 2025, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4IgjsKbxjI (accessed June 29, 2025). He also speaks of “caricatures” of hell that show it as a torture chamber of sorts and cites C.S. Lewis as an authority on what hell is really like. 3 Gavin Ortlund, “Annihilationism: Why I’m Not Convinced,” [starting 28:00]. Fans of Rethinking hell will also know that I myself got to be on our super-sized live response to his video, and one major point of contention I called out at the end was Ortlund’s softening of hell while insisting that the traditional view is true. 4 Rethinking Hell, “Rethinking Hell Live 114: Responding (Again) to Gavin Ortlund,” Youtube Video[starting 3:55:27], posted May 22, 2025, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq_feY6Ooxg (accessed June 29, 2025).

Of course, Gavin Ortlund is just one of many, especially within the apologetics community. In a previous article, which one might say is my flagship article on the matter at hand, I give several examples including J.P. Moreland, Frank Turek, and William Lane Craig. 5 See “The Many and Varied Problems with the Modern, Metaphorical View of Eternal Conscious Hell“. This take on hell is very much within the mainstream of evangelical Christianity.

I have noted before that major church figures throughout church history, if they believed in eternal conscious hell at all, believed it was a place of fire and torture and active wrath against the wicked. It was not locked from the inside. The fire was not a metaphor for a state of regret or anguish over being separated from God. The dominant historical view of eternal conscious hell was far more like the divine torture chamber that Dante envisioned than it was like the quiet sadness chamber of modern apologists. 6 For more on this, see “The Not-So-Traditional View: Does Your Particular Belief About Hell Really Have Church History On Its Side?” Parts 1, 2, and 3.

While I consider this so-called caricature view to ultimately be unbiblical, I find any metaphorical, softened view of eternal conscious hell to be absurd on its face. It is obvious in its falsity in ways that are not the case for the actually-traditional traditional view of hell as a place of eternal conscious burning. In a nutshell, the very passages used to argue for eternal conscious hell tend to do so by appealing to what at least appears to show ongoing fire, ongoing torment in fire, etc.  This is in addition to the fact that passages that speak of not just fire but incineration (like 2 Peter 2:6) make little sense if there is neither fire nor literal destruction. 7 For more on this and how it affects all metaphorical forms of eternal conscious hell, not just modern air-conditioned versions, see “Why the Modern Version of the Eternal Torment Doctrine Falls Short“. It is not as though there many passages that generically say hell is eternal and conscious, and then separately other passages speak of fire in hell. Rather, the fire, the torment, the worms, etc. are what are (supposedly) said to go on forever and those things themselves are the basis for eternal conscious hell in the first place. 8 Daniel 12:2 would be one of the few exceptions, since most who hold an air-conditioned view would be okay with saying shame and contempt last forever in hell. For example, Matthew 25:41 doesn’t say “eternal hell.” It is appealed to by traditionalists specifically because it says “eternal fire“. The eternal conscious experience of being burned in the fire is then (incorrectly) inferred. 9 As to why Matthew 25:41 does not teach eternal conscious hell, see “What the Bible Actually Says about ‘Eternal Fire'” Parts 1 and 2. But in the softened, metaphorical views like those Ortlund advocates in the video, none of those things are actually part of hell at all.

The one that really gets me is when those who hold to a fireless, tortureless, separation-from-God view of hell appeal to Revelation 14:9-11. And a big reason I appeal to Gavin Ortlund’s video here is because his case against annihilationism relies almost entirely on this passage and on Revelation 20:10 (which has similar problems). 10 For more on why Revelation 14:9-11 does not teach the doctrine of eternal conscious hell, see “A Primer on Revelation 14:9-11” and “A Primer of Revelation 20:10“. 11See also Chris Date and William Tanksley’s, “RH LIVE! Episode 61: Hell and the Book of Revelation, with William Tanksley“.

Consider what we see in Revelation 14:9-11:

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Scripture quotations taken from the (NASB®) New American Standard Bible®, Copyright © 1960, 1971, 1977, 1995, 2020 by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission. All rights reserved. lockman.org

It is understandable why one might think that this passage teaches eternal torment – at least if they ignore the Old Testament background and other points brought up in our noted responses. The people in view are tormented with fire, and the smoke that results from their torment in the fire rises for ever and ever. Therefore, the burning itself goes on for ever and ever. And if one holds to the actually-traditional view of eternal fiery torture – the view that Gavin Ortlund and many other modern apologists call a caricature but that was held by many of their own favorite teachers of past eras – then there is at least some consistency here. The case for eternal conscious hell, namely a place of eternal physical torment in fire, is based on a passage that (they believe) shows people being eternally tormented in literal, physical fire.

The problem is when this passage is appealed to by people who believe that hell is not literal fire, hell is not a place of extreme physical pain imposed from the outside out of wrath and vengeance, and hell is primarily separation from God.  This passage, a favorite among traditionalists, is about extreme physical pain imposed from the outside, in physically burning fire, out of unmitigated wrath and vengeance. And for good measure, this physical torment occurs in the presence of the Jesus (v. 10)!

There is an astounding lack of self-awareness on the part of many who appeal to this passage.

Now, in a somewhat recent internet discussion, someone did attempt to call me out as being dishonest by trying to convince people that softened views of eternal conscious hell are invalid on the grounds that I am really just doing it so people will find the eternal conscious hell view harder to accept and be more sympathetic to annihilationism. But I have never pretended otherwise. I basically wrote a whole article saying as much. 13 See “The Traditional View of Hell Is Rightly Called ‘Eternal Torture’ (At Least Traditionally“.

If the air conditioned eternal conscious hell view was at least valid and reasonable then I would take a very different approach. But there is no justification for holding to a view like that of C.S. Lewis or apologists who have followed. 14 C.S. Lewis was not remotely the first to teach metaphorical fire in hell, and he probably wasn’t the first major teacher to insist on believing in eternal conscious hell while removing much of what made it objectionable to people. But he was a major influence in this regard. It is a cop out. It’s biblically vacuous and lacks the one strength that the eternal conscious hell view typically has, which is dominance in church history. So yes, if you think the Bible teaches eternal conscious hell, then you have to own the real thing.

You can’t go appealing to passages about God actively burning people with physical fire and sulfur as proof that hell is eternal suffering while also saying God would never actually burn someone forever and hell is just about their self-imposed sadness. You can’t go arguing that we should believe in eternal conscious hell because Christian tradition has predominantly (though not unanimously) taught eternal conscious hell yet also say that eternal conscious hell is really quite radically different from what almost everyone taught until recently. 15 For more on the early church and the presence of both universalism and annihilationism, see “Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: The Doctrine of Eternal Torment Was Not Universal in the Early Church“. We must be consistent.

There is so much psycho-analyzing of annihilationists by traditionalists, on how we don’t want to accept the hard view of eternal conscious hell and so forth. We just soften the Bible’s teaching to be more tolerable to the masses! And yet it is hard to say that there is not a lot of that going on across the board in Christianity now. Eastern Orthodox apologists increasingly try to argue that their tradition always taught the view that hell and heaven are both just God’s presence experienced differently throughout eternity – as if their own ancient saints aren’t among those who taught the fiery torture view. 16 For more on this, see “The Not-So-Traditional View: Does Your Particular Belief About Hell Really Have Church History On Its Side? (Part 3)“. 17 For other reasons to deny this relatively recent Eastern Orthodox view of hell, see “The Modern Eastern Orthodox View and the Hellfire of God’s Love“. Air-conditioned views are at least acceptable within Roman Catholicism. 18 John Paul II. General Audience,” [Sermon] General Audience, July 28, 1999. The Holy See, n.d., https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999.html/ (accessed June 30, 2025). “The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.” And it is not as though there are not plenty of examples in otherwise theologically conservative evangelicalism.

But what basis is there for this view, other than to cling to the traditional view while making it more tolerable? The comments in Ortlund’s video were rich with discussion on this and other matters related to this view, and in them you are unlikely to find anything of substance when this very question was posed. Because there is no substance. The whole metaphorical view relies on flimsy arguments like the claim that that fire and darkness cannot co-exist (they can) and therefore every description of hell must be metaphorical. 19 For more on how fire and darkness can co-exist, and how traditionalists in church history didn’t overlook the existence of both in scripture when teaching hell was literal fire, see Ronnie Demler, “Yes, Fire and Darkness Can Coexist,” Consuming Fire [blog], Patheos, posted July 11, 2016 (accessed June 30, 2025).  There is essentially no affirmative argument from any biblical texts, apart from perhaps an occasional connection that even the view’s adherents probably know are paper thin. 20 2 Thessalonians 1:9 may come up, based on translation, due to potential connection to separation from God. But the connection to air-conditioned hell is paper thin, as shown by the fact that Jesus comes in fire and flames and deals retribution tot he wicked int he proceeding verses. This view of eternal conscious hell seems to assume a bizarre premise that the Bible and church history teach that hell is eternal and conscious but are vague on any other details, and so we need to speculate on what makes the most sense within that very broad framework. This is not the case at all, for reasons outlined here and elsewhere.

You don’t get to have your cake and eat it too. You don’t get to be part of the club by believing the hard, traditional view and being a good boy or girl while also changing the traditional view into something more tolerable for the masses. Accept what your view about hell entails if you really are convinced that it is biblical. And if it gives you trouble to accept it, then at least in this case, that’s because the doctrine of eternal conscious hell isn’t biblical in the first place.

References
1 The idea of “air conditioning” hell usually comes up in traditionalist polemics. For example, see “Albert Mohler, Air Conditioning Hell: How Liberalism Happens,” albertmohler.com [blog],
posted January 26, 2010, https://albertmohler.com/2010/01/26/air-conditioning-hell-how-liberalism-happens/ (accessed June 29, 2025).
2 Gavin Ortlund, “Annihilationism: Why I’m Not Convinced,” YouTube video [starting 28:00], posted May 19, 2025, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4IgjsKbxjI (accessed June 29, 2025).
3 Gavin Ortlund, “Annihilationism: Why I’m Not Convinced,” [starting 28:00].
4 Rethinking Hell, “Rethinking Hell Live 114: Responding (Again) to Gavin Ortlund,” Youtube Video[starting 3:55:27], posted May 22, 2025, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq_feY6Ooxg (accessed June 29, 2025).
5 See “The Many and Varied Problems with the Modern, Metaphorical View of Eternal Conscious Hell“.
6 For more on this, see “The Not-So-Traditional View: Does Your Particular Belief About Hell Really Have Church History On Its Side?” Parts 1, 2, and 3.
7 For more on this and how it affects all metaphorical forms of eternal conscious hell, not just modern air-conditioned versions, see “Why the Modern Version of the Eternal Torment Doctrine Falls Short“.
8 Daniel 12:2 would be one of the few exceptions, since most who hold an air-conditioned view would be okay with saying shame and contempt last forever in hell.
9 As to why Matthew 25:41 does not teach eternal conscious hell, see “What the Bible Actually Says about ‘Eternal Fire'” Parts 1 and 2.
10 For more on why Revelation 14:9-11 does not teach the doctrine of eternal conscious hell, see “A Primer on Revelation 14:9-11” and “A Primer of Revelation 20:10“.
11 See also Chris Date and William Tanksley’s, “RH LIVE! Episode 61: Hell and the Book of Revelation, with William Tanksley“.
12 Scripture quotations taken from the (NASB®) New American Standard Bible®, Copyright © 1960, 1971, 1977, 1995, 2020 by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission. All rights reserved. lockman.org
13 See “The Traditional View of Hell Is Rightly Called ‘Eternal Torture’ (At Least Traditionally“.
14 C.S. Lewis was not remotely the first to teach metaphorical fire in hell, and he probably wasn’t the first major teacher to insist on believing in eternal conscious hell while removing much of what made it objectionable to people. But he was a major influence in this regard.
15 For more on the early church and the presence of both universalism and annihilationism, see “Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: The Doctrine of Eternal Torment Was Not Universal in the Early Church“.
16 For more on this, see “The Not-So-Traditional View: Does Your Particular Belief About Hell Really Have Church History On Its Side? (Part 3)“.
17 For other reasons to deny this relatively recent Eastern Orthodox view of hell, see “The Modern Eastern Orthodox View and the Hellfire of God’s Love“.
18 John Paul II. General Audience,” [Sermon] General Audience, July 28, 1999. The Holy See, n.d., https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999.html/ (accessed June 30, 2025). “The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.”
19 For more on how fire and darkness can co-exist, and how traditionalists in church history didn’t overlook the existence of both in scripture when teaching hell was literal fire, see Ronnie Demler, “Yes, Fire and Darkness Can Coexist,” Consuming Fire [blog], Patheos, posted July 11, 2016 (accessed June 30, 2025).
20 2 Thessalonians 1:9 may come up, based on translation, due to potential connection to separation from God. But the connection to air-conditioned hell is paper thin, as shown by the fact that Jesus comes in fire and flames and deals retribution tot he wicked int he proceeding verses.

4 Maccabees 13:14-15: Understanding Matthew 10:28 & Eternal Torment

A Quick Examination of Matthew 10:28
As an annihilationist, whenever I’m asked which verse most clearly teaches my view, my lips—almost reflexively at this point—immediately begin to recite Matthew 10:28:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Depending on the type of interlocutor, my recitation elicits different types of responses. But regardless of which type I’m speaking to, everyone at least admits that, on the surface, Matthew 10:28 sounds like it teaches my view. That said, it really doesn’t matter how far beneath the surface one wants to dig; the exegetical shovel does nothing but uncover golden reasons to take the verse the way it sounds on the surface.

Firstly, in the rest of Matthew and the other synoptic Gospels, whenever the word translated “destroy” (apollymi) is used in the active voice as a transitive verb describing an action done to a personal agent (like in Matthew 10:28), the word always means “slay” (i.e., “kill” but in a more emphatic way – Matt 2:13; 12:14; 21:41; 22:7; 27:20; Luke 17:27; 17:29; 19:47; 20:16; Mark 3:6; 11:18; 12:9).

Secondly, the word translated “kill” in Matthew 10:28 is apokteinō, and when we look to the Septuagint, we see that whenever apokteinō and apollymi are used in proximity and share the aforementioned semantic features, apollymi invariably means “slay” (e.g., Gen. 18:24-25 LXX; Esther 9:15-16 LXX; Dan. 2:24 LXX; etc.).

Thirdly, whereas Mark 3:4 records Jesus asking, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill (apokteinō)?”, Luke 6:9 records him saying, “I ask you, is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to destroy (apollymi) it? Evidently, what Jesus meant was communicable with either word.

At this juncture, though some still try to argue for a different meaning of the word by appealing to other, less-than-pertinent uses of apollymi, some concede the meaning and instead make a beeline for the fact that the verse merely says that God “can” slay both soul and body, not that God will do so. Though I could say more in response to this point, it suffices to point out that in Matthew 10:39, Jesus goes on to say that “whoever finds his psychē will apollymi it.” For those unaware, the word translated “soul” in Matthew 10:28 is also psychē, so what Jesus said God can do to the psychē, we explicitly know he will do to it.

Once this is pointed out, the move is often to sidestep Matthew 10:28 altogether and try to prove me wrong by showing that some other verse in the Bible teaches eternal torment. The reasoning goes something like: “I can’t explain Matthew 10:28, but this other verse teaches eternal torment, and since Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, your reading of Matthew 10:28 can’t be right.” But of course, the sword cuts both ways. So, even if they could somehow show that another verse taught eternal torment, I could simply employ the same reasoning and we’d be at an impasse. However, I wouldn’t need to employ such reasoning because to be deep in exegesis is to cease to be a traditionalist. No traditionalist proof text in Scripture can withstand conditionalist scrutiny.

Introducing 4 Maccabees: What Can Traditionalists Draw from It?
That also goes for 4 Maccabees 13:14-15. Only a handful of traditionalists are even aware that this non-canonical book contains some support for a traditionalist understanding of Matthew 10:28—at least, on the surface. According to the Lexham Bible Dictionary, “the work must have been composed around the middle of the first century.”1John C. Johnson, “Maccabees, Fourth Book of the,” in The Lexham Bible Dictionary, ed. John D. Barry et al. (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016 For the sake of argument, I am happy to grant that it was not only written prior to Matthew, but prior to when Jesus spoke the words recorded therein. Not only so, but I’ll even grant that Jesus had 4 Maccabees 13:14-15 in mind when he spoke said words. Here’s how the passage reads:

Let us not fear him who thinks he is killing us, [15] for great is the struggle of the soul and the danger of eternal torment (aiōnios basanos) lying before those who transgress the commandment of God.

There’s certainly no disputing that the passage resembles Matthew 10:28. But is that cause for throwing out the solid exegetical basis for understanding Matthew 10:28 the way we annihilationists do? Most certainly not. Even if this passage actually taught that the wicked will be tormented without end—and we’ll see why it most reasonably doesn’t in a moment—I still don’t think traditionalists could reasonably conclude that Matthew 10:28 teaches their view. The best way to harmonize every data point, I think, would be to conclude that Jesus likely appreciated the basic framing of 4 Maccabees 13:14-15 (one ought to fear God for what he can do rather than fear man for what he can do), but adapted it by specifying a different punishment, namely destruction, to set the record straight concerning what awaits the wicked. In other words, Matthew 10:28 could easily be taken as a kind of drive-by polemic against the teaching of 4 Maccabees 13:15.

Eternal Torment Doesn’t Refer to… Eternal Torment?
OK, don’t get me wrong: I know this sounds absurd on the surface. We at Rethinking Hell ceaselessly refer to the traditional view as “the eternal torment view,” and here I am saying that a passage that explicitly contains the phrase “eternal torment” (aiōnios basanos) doesn’t actually communicate “the eternal torment view.” Not only so, but in Part 1 of my series of articles in response to Trent Horn, I wrote:

Trent begins by rightly representing what we conditionalists believe, saying that our view is “the view that God destroys the damned in hell instead of allowing them to experience eternal torment.” Firstly, it is at least interesting to note that to describe our view, Trent says that God destroys the damned, which seems to indicate that when he is not seeking to reconcile the Bible’s language of destruction with other texts that he understands to be teaching eternal torment, he implicitly acknowledges that such language communicates what our view teaches. When interpreting a verse like 2 Thessalonians 1:9, however, Trent is forced to oppose the evident meaning of the word.

Yikes. Am I being a hypocrite here? Is my consistent use of the phrase “eternal torment” to refer to the traditional view an “[implicit acknowledgment] that such language communicates what [the traditional] view teaches”? Am I “forced to oppose the evident meaning” of the phrase in 4 Maccabees 13:15? No, no, and no. First of all, I, here and now, explicitly acknowledge that the phrase “eternal torment” can communicate what the traditional view teaches—but that’s not the only thing it can reasonably communicate (more on this further down). In passages like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and Matthew 10:28, the destruction language only reasonably communicates annihilation. Second of all, 4 Maccabees is not infallible Scripture, and even if it taught that the wicked will be tormented forever and ever, no reasonable conclusion could be drawn from 13:14-15 to undermine the solid exegetical basis for understanding Matthew 10:28 the way we annihilationists do, so I’m not forced whatsoever. Suggesting that the phrase means something different in 4 Maccabees than what it means in common parlance is not a necessary move for me to remain an annihilationist—nor even a remotely important one. Writing this article, for me, is just a funny opportunity to demonstrate how even the phrase “eternal torment” does not necessarily refer to… eternal torment.

Reasons to Question the Meaning of Eternal Torment in 4 Maccabees…
Let me be more specific: when I say that the phrase “eternal torment” does not only reasonably communicate what the traditional view teaches, I mean that there is more to be considered than merely the individual meanings of the words “eternal” and “torment.” This should become increasingly clear as we go along, especially when we get to the point of considering how a similar, related phrase is used. That said, I freely grant that if you simply take the words “eternal” and “torment” and put them together, it could very well refer to torment that goes on forever, as the traditional view teaches. No question about it. But is that what it refers to in 4 Maccabees? What do we discover when we pull out our trusty exegetical shovel to dig beneath the surface? Do we uncover reasons to stick with an interpretation in line with the traditional view? I don’t think so. Instead, we uncover at least four reasons to think that the phrase “eternal torment,” i.e. aiōnios basanos, likely, and surprisingly, communicates our view.

Immortality and Life for the Righteous
In order to be tormented forever, one must necessarily be immortal. Put another way, immortality is a prerequisite for being tormented forever. However, the impression one gets from reading 4 Maccabees is that immortality and endless life are reserved only for the righteous. Indeed, in 4 Maccabees 17:9-12, which sums up well the account recorded throughout the book, we read:

“Here lie buried an aged priest and an aged woman and seven sons, because of the violence of the tyrant who wished to destroy the way of life of the Hebrews. They vindicated their nation, looking to God and enduring torture even to death.”
Truly the contest in which they were engaged was divine, for on that day virtue gave the awards and tested them for their endurance. The prize was immortality in endless life.

Unless one has 21st-century participation ribbons in mind, it is quite evident that to call immortality (aphtharsia) in endless life (polychronios zōē) a “prize” implies that it is only reserved for winners. To quote Paul, “Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it” (1 Cor. 9:24). In this case, “virtue gave the awards,” meaning that they were deemed winners for refusing to renounce virtue, even unto death (cf. Rev. 2:10-11). Three chapters earlier, in keeping with Paul’s race analogy, 4 Maccabees 14:4-5 says: “None of the seven youths proved coward or shrank from death, but all of them, as though running the course toward immortality (athanasia), hastened to death by torture.”

Concerning the eldest son, we read: “Although the ligaments joining his bones were already severed, the courageous youth, worthy of Abraham, did not groan, but as though transformed by fire into immortality, he nobly endured the rackings” (4 Macc. 9:21-22). The image is one of a metal being refined by fire; the fire with which they were burning the youth to death, as it were, resulted in him coming out of it immortal, since he died faithful to the religion God instituted. More to the point, 4 Maccabees 15:2-3 states: “Two courses were open to this mother, that of religion, and that of preserving her seven sons for a time (proskairos), as the tyrant had promised. She loved religion more, the religion that preserves them for eternal life (aiōnios zōē) according to God’s promise.

Consonant with this, the fourth son, refusing to obey the tyrant’s call to renounce his religion, said to those who dragged him in: “You do not have a fire hot enough to make me play the coward. No—by the blessed death of my brothers, by the eternal destruction of the tyrant, and by the everlasting life (aidios bios) of the pious, I will not renounce our noble family ties.” (More on the tyrant’s eternal destruction later)

In sum, 4 Maccabees presents immortality in endless life as a prize according to God’s promise for those who do not renounce their religion to the end of their lives (in this case, Judaism, prior to the new covenant). Unless we wish to say that immortality in endless life—”the prize of virtue” (4 Macc 9:8)—is also given to the impious, it seems like we have a solid reason for doubting that aiōnios basanos refers to torment that persists for eternity. Indeed, without immortality, one is bound to die.

Basanos’ed to Death
Having considered what 4 Maccabees has to say about immortality, another point worth considering is how basanos, i.e. torment, is consistently linked to death throughout the book. Indeed, consider again 4 Maccabees 14:4-5:

None of the seven youths proved coward or shrank from death, but all of them, as though running the course toward immortality, hastened to death by torture (thanatos dia basanos).

Basanos is here explicitly identified as the means through which death was inflicted upon the seven youths. Similarly, in 4 Maccabees 13:27, this time using the verb form of basanos, we read: “But although nature and companionship and virtuous habits had augmented the affection of family ties, those who were left endured for the sake of religion, while watching their brothers being maltreated and tortured to death (basanizō mechri thanatos).

In 4 Maccabees 6:27, 30, it says: ”You know, O God, that though I might have saved myself, I am dying in burning torments (basanos) for the sake of the law… After he said this, the holy man died nobly in his tortures (basanos); even in the tortures (basanos) of death he resisted, by virtue of reason, for the sake of the law.” As yet another example, 4 Maccabees 7:16 reads: “If, therefore, because of piety an aged man despised tortures (basanos) even to death, most certainly devout reason is governor of the emotions.”

I could stop here, but why not another example? In 4 Maccabees 9:5-8, we read: “You are trying to terrify us by threatening us with death by torture (basanos), as though a short time ago you learned nothing from Eleazar. And if the aged men of the Hebrews because of their religion lived piously while enduring torture, it would be even more fitting that we young men should die despising your coercive tortures (basanos), which our aged instructor also overcame. Therefore, tyrant, put us to the test; and if you take our lives because of our religion, do not suppose that you can injure us by torturing (basanizō) us. For we, through this severe suffering and endurance, shall have the prize of virtue and shall be with God, on whose account we suffer…”

More examples of this close conceptual link can easily be multiplied (4 Macc 11:1; 12:13-14; 16:1; 17:7; 17:10; 18:20-21), but the above should suffice to establish the point: in 4 Maccabees, basanos is repeatedly either said to culminate in death, or to cause it. Taking this into consideration, and pairing this consideration with the notion that immortality is a prize reserved for the righteous, could it be the case that aiōnios basanos culminates in death?

The Eternal Destruction of the Tyrant
The exegetical shovel is not yet done digging. While the previous two puzzle pieces alone seem to suggest that aiōnios basanos results in death, the fourth son also gives us an interesting puzzle piece. Consider again his words to the torturers in 4 Maccabees 10:14-15:

You do not have a fire hot enough to make me play the coward. No—by the blessed death of my brothers, by the eternal destruction (aiōnios olethros) of the tyrant, and by the everlasting life of the pious, I will not renounce our noble family ties.

On the surface, “eternal destruction” certainly seems to lend itself to the case I’ve been making so far. If a person is basanos’ed to death and remains dead forever, it seems reasonable to call that an eternal destruction. Indeed, in 3 Maccabees 6:34, we read of people who were “appointed… for destruction (olethros) and to be food for the birds,” clearly meaning that they were appointed to be slain. Consonant with that use of the word, we read the following in 2 Maccabees 13:6-8: “There the whole community pushes one who is liable for sacrilege or those guilty of other excessive evils to their destruction (olethros). So it happened that the lawless one, Menelaus, died such a death and did not happen to have ⌊a burial⌋. This was altogether just for, given that he performed many sins with respect to the altar, of which the fire and the ashes were holy, he received his death in ashes.”

The only other place besides 4 Maccabees 10:15 where the phrase aiōnios olethros can be found is actually in the New Testament. Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, says:

and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire (en pyri flogos), inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction (aiōnios olethros) from the presence of the Lord (apo prosōpou tou kyriou) and from the glory of his might…

Much can be said about this passage, and all of it can help us confirm the meaning of aiōnios olethros. For one, it bears a striking similarity to a certain passage from Psalms of Solomon, a pseudepigraphal collection of Jewish psalms written in the first century BC with which Paul was probably familiar as a well-read Pharisee. After all, Paul even evinces a level of familiarity with pagan writings while pleading his case for Christianity before the Areopagus in Acts 17. Indeed, it seems most likely to me that Paul had these psalms in mind while putting pen to paper and chose to borrow some of their language. Here is Psalm of Solomon 12:5, 8:

may a slanderous tongue be destroyed (apoloito) by the holy ones with the fire of flame (en pyri flogos)… and may sinners be destroyed (apolointo) from the face of the Lord (apo prosōpou kyriou)

Apoloito and apolointo are simply different forms of the verb apollymi (the word we saw earlier that means “slay” in Matthew 10:28), just like how “think, thought, or thinking” are forms of the same verb, and these all come from the same root word: olethros. Now, given that Paul seemingly alludes to what Psalms of Solomon says about the fate of the wicked, it seems reasonable to conclude that Paul agrees with what it teaches on this matter, and that we can therefore reasonably confirm the meaning of aiōnios olethros by considering what the psalms mean by the words Paul borrowed.

In the following chapter of Psalms of Solomon, chapter 13, we read the following in verses 9-10: “For the life of the righteous is for eternity. But sinners will be removed into destruction (apōleian – root: olethros), and their memory will no longer be found.” On one hand, the righteous live forever, while on the other hand, the unrighteous are destroyed, never to live again. Indeed, back in Ps Sol 2:35, we are told that God “puts the arrogant to sleep for destruction of eternity (apōleian aiōnos),” a phrase practically synonymous with aiōnios olethros, and even simply translated “eternal destruction” by the Lexham English Septuagint. Lastly, in Ps Sol 3:11-16, we read:

The sinner stumbled and curses his life, the day of his birth and the labor pangs of his mother. He added sins upon sins to his life. He fell, because his downfall was wicked, and he will not arise. The destruction (apoleia) of the sinner is for eternity… This is the portion of the sinners for eternity. But those who fear the Lord will arise into eternal life, and their life will never come to an end in the light of the Lord.

Here, more of the same notion is set forth: the destruction of the wicked is contrasted with the never-ending life of the righteous, meaning that the wicked will forever remain deprived of life as a result of their destruction. This is certainly what Irenaeus of Lyons, writing around 185 AD, understood Paul to mean in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, who paraphrased the verse this way in Against Heresies 4.33.11: “And the apostle in like manner says [of them], ‘Who shall be punished with everlasting death from the face of the Lord…’”2Read Part 1 of my 3-part series of articles in response to Trent Horn to see how Irenaeus was undoubtedly an annihilationist.

In the second volume of his monumental Hermeneia commentary on 1 Enoch, George W. E. Nickelsburg draws a connection between 1 Enoch 58:3 and the Ps Sol passage above. Here is what the 1 Enoch passage says:

The righteous will be in the light of the sun,
and the chosen, in the light of everlasting life.
The days of their life will have no end,
and the days of the holy will be innumerable.

“The second line of the distich,” Nickelsburg writes, “ties the light imagery to the newly introduced motif of everlasting life. For the same cluster of motifs, see [Ps Sol 3:11-16].”3George W. E. Nickelsburg and James C. VanderKam, 1 Enoch 2: A Commentary on the Book of 1 Enoch, Chapters 37–82, ed. Klaus Baltzer, Hermeneia—A Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2012), 218. The similar teachings, however, don’t end there. For example, when Ps Sol 2:35 says that God “puts the arrogant to sleep,” it’s evident that this means that “worms shall be their bed,” as 1 Enoch 46:6 says. What’s more, in the very next line of 1 Enoch 46:6, the author adds that “they shall have no hope of rising from their beds,” just like Ps Sol 3 above, which says that the sinner “will not arise,” in contrast with God-fearers who will arise to endless life.4As I point out in Part 1 of my 3-part series of articles in response to Trent Horn, the notion that the unrighteous will not rise is one we find in the writings of people like Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Irenaeus of Lyons (and Polycarp, though my article does not cover him). Of course, we at Rethinking Hell do not deny that the unrighteous will rise to judgment, and I do not think that these early church fathers did either. What they mean, I think, is that only the righteous will rise indefinitely. It is reminiscent of Jesus who, despite teaching that both the righteous and the unrighteous will rise from the dead (John 5:28-29), also spoke of “those who are considered worthy to attain to… the resurrection from the dead” (Luke 20:35), as if not everybody takes part in the resurrection. It is also reminiscent of Paul who, despite saying “that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust” (Acts 24:15), also said: “I have suffered the loss of all things and count them rubbish, in order that I may… be found in Him… having a righteousness… which comes through faith in Christ… that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead” (Phil 3:8-11), as though he could fail to be counted among those who will be raised. That is because Jesus, Paul, and the four church fathers I mentioned all specifically have in mind the “resurrection of life” (Jn 5:29); the resurrection whose beneficiaries “cannot die anymore, because they… are sons of God” (Luke 20:36). Those who are not sons of God can still die, and will indeed die a second time at the resurrection of judgment (Rev. 20:14; 21:8). Of relevance to this present section, however, is 1 Enoch 84:5’s use of the phrase “eternal destruction.” Here’s the verse:

And now, O God and Lord and Great King,
I implore and beseech Thee to fulfil my prayer,
To leave me a posterity on earth,
And not destroy all the flesh of man,
And make the earth without inhabitant,
So that there should be an eternal destruction.

This translation of the verse is by Robert Henry Charles in his Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament. Although I don’t have access to the original language, there seems to be no reason to doubt that “eternal destruction” is an accurate translation of the phrase, seeing that the phrase is also translated this way by James H. Charlesworth in his The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, and by George W. E. Nickelsburg in the first volume of his monumental Hermeneia commentary on 1 Enoch. Nickelsburg notes that his “translation is as literal as possible within the limits of good English usage.”5George W. E. Nickelsburg, 1 Enoch: A Commentary on the Book of 1 Enoch, ed. Klaus Baltzer, Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress, 2001), 3. He also assures us that his “fresh English translation is supplied with a full apparatus of all significant variant readings in the Ethiopic manuscripts, the manuscripts that preserve parts of the Greek version, and the Qumran Aramaic fragments.”6Ibid., xxii–xxiii. Relevant to the verse in question, he makes no mention of any variant reading of 1 Enoch 84:5.

So, what we have is a phrase with no variant reading that’s been translated “eternal destruction” by a highly competent translator whose “translation is as literal as possible,” and by two other highly competent translators. Now, in 1 Enoch 84:5, the meaning of “eternal destruction” is quite evident from what leads up to it. Eternal destruction, in this passage, is what would result if God destroyed all the flesh of man and made the earth without inhabitant, and left Enoch without posterity. With all mankind destroyed and nobody left to procreate, you get an eternal destruction; i.e. no more humans from that point onward.

Let’s sum up what we’ve seen in this section. First, when we look at the couple other uses of olethros in previous Maccabean literature in punitive contexts, we see that the word refers to being slain. Second, the Greek phrase aiōnios olethros is only used one time outside of 4 Maccabees 10:15, namely in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. When we consider the Psalms of Solomon, which Paul seems to allude to in this verse, we see that they use a very similar phrase (apōleian aionos) to describe the result of when God “puts the arrogant to sleep.” The Psalms of Solomon also contrast the “destruction… for eternity” of the unrighteous with the “eternal life… [that] will never come to an end” of the righteous, much like what we see in 4 Maccabees 10:15. And third, the phrase “eternal destruction” in 1 Enoch 84:5 unambiguously refers to permanent extinction.

Putting all of these pieces together, namely that immortality in endless life is the prize of virtue, that basanos repeatedly culminates in or causes death throughout the book, and that eternal destruction most reasonably refers to permanent extinction, it’s seeming harder and harder to maintain that aiōnios basanos should be understood as an eternity of torment.

How Should We Understand the Phrase Aiōnios Basanos?
This is the question that needs an answer. Knowing that basanos means “torment,” it seems only natural that aiōnios basanos would refer to torment that goes on forever. After all, we take aiōnios zōē to refer to life that goes on forever, and aiōnios olethros as permanent destruction. Although some annihilationists and universalists (and even traditionalists) claim that aiōnios can mean something like “belonging to the aiōn to come”—which doesn’t speak to a thing’s duration but to when it’s set to take place—I don’t think this suggestion is borne out by the evidence. Aside from the fact that aiōnios consistently denotes duration throughout the Septuagint and the New Testament, one of the main biblical passages that causes me to reject this claim is Luke 18:30, which speaks of those who will “receive… aiōnios life in the aiōn to come.” If aiōnios meant “belonging to the aiōn to come,” then the words “in the aiōn to come” would be redundant. Jesus would be saying that people will “receive… life belonging to the aiōn to come in the aiōn to come.” It seems much more reasonable to think that aiōnios speaks to the duration of life in the aiōn to come, since the words “in the aiōn to come” already tell us the aiōn to which “life” belongs. As it is, I’m convinced that aiōnios is best defined as “everlasting” or “perpetual,” and that’s what we will (continue to) assume going forward.

Who Can Dwell With Everlasting Burnings?
Earlier in the article, I wrote that we would “get to the point of considering how a similar, related phrase is used.” Well, we’ve now reached that point. The related phrase in question is “eternal fire” (aiōnios pyr), which is used a total of three times in the New Testament. Before briefly considering each instance, however, I want to turn our attention to a practically identical phrase in Isaiah 33:12-14:

And the peoples will be burned to lime,
like thorns cut down, that are burned in the fire.

[13] Hear, you who are far off, what I have done;
and you who are near, acknowledge my might.
[14] The sinners in Zion are afraid;
trembling has seized the godless:
“Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings (môqeḏê ʿôlām)?

Convenient for my case, the passage not only asks a pertinent question but also offers a pertinent answer. In verse 14, the sinners in Zion ask: “Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?” The word ʿôlām, translated “everlasting” here, is the Hebrew equivalent of aiōnios, reflected in the fact that the Septuagint routinely translates it as such. Significantly, the implied answer to the question is that none of them can dwell with everlasting burnings; the consuming fire of God will burn the peoples to lime. Unless one’s mind is permeated with the idea that the wicked will be tormented forever and ever in Hell, no rational, thinking person would answer the question any differently. Nobody can withstand day-long burnings, never mind everlasting ones.

No One Can Dwell With Aiōnios Burnings; Aiōnios Fire Awaits the Unrighteous; Therefore…
Now, a bit of logic can go a long way, especially when each premise is taken directly from Scripture. Knowing from Isaiah 33:14 that no one can dwell with aiōnios burnings, and from Jude 7, Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41 that aiōnios fire awaits the unrighteous, it’s only logical to conclude that the unrighteous will be unable to dwell with aiōnios fire. That said, let’s now examine Jude 7, Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41 more closely to confirm the line of logic I’ve just presented.

Jude 7 says that “Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities… serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of aiōnios fire,” referring to the fire by which Sodom and Gomorrah were reduced to ashes in Genesis 19. Indeed, Peter, in a parallel passage (2 Pet. 2:6), says that “by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.” Similar to these two is 3 Maccabees 2:5, which reads: “You consumed with fire and sulfur the people of Sodom who acted arrogantly, who were notorious for their vices; and you made them an example to those who should come afterward.” Evidently, to speak of Sodom and Gomorrah undergoing aiōnios fire isn’t to speak of them being tormented by fire for eternity, but to speak of them being eradicated.

In Matthew 18:8, Jesus says it’s better to get rid of body parts that cause us to sin and enter life than to get thrown into aiōnios fire with all our members intact, implying that it’s better for only part of us to be gone than for all of us to be gone. This is how Irenaeus interpreted the verse in Against Heresies 4.27.4, writing: “And just as then, those who led vicious lives, and put other people astray, were condemned and cast out, so also even now the offending eye is plucked out, and the foot and the hand, lest the rest of the body perish in like manner.” Again, aiōnios fire eradicates those thrown into it.

Lastly, in Matthew 25:41, the threat of aiōnios fire is quickly followed by Jesus contrasting the fate of the wicked with that of the righteous, saying: “And these will go away into aiōnios punishment, but the righteous into aiōnios life.” Since both fates are presented as mutually exclusive, it follows that the fate of the wicked doesn’t involve living forever, contrary to what the traditional view posits.

Seeing that all the evidence in Scripture points to the fact that aiōnios fire and burnings destroy their subjects, how are we to understand the phrase “aiōnios fire”? Well, what if we understand it in a manner consistent with how we understand the phrase aiōnios olethros? If destruction is the result of destroying, then to speak of everlasting destruction is to speak of an act of destroying whose effect (or consequence) is everlasting. That being the case, it seems reasonable to take it that everlasting fire is everlasting in that its effect (or consequence) is everlasting.

One might object by saying that the effects of the fire that consumed the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are not actually everlasting because those whom God destroyed will rise to face God on the last day; and that, therefore, Jude must not mean that everlasting fire is everlasting in that its effect is everlasting. To this, I would say (1) that even if this objection were granted, it still wouldn’t suddenly justify taking eternal fire as not deadly, and (2) that this objection is bad in that it’s overly granular: even if the inhabitants of these cities rise, their resurrection obviously isn’t an act of restoration or reversal; it isn’t designed to undo the damage that was done to them. Rather, it is designed to confirm their guilt before the righteous Judge of the world before returning to where they belong: in the dust of the earth. All things considered, it makes perfect sense to take it that the fire Jude mentions is everlasting in that its effect is everlasting.

Aiōnios Fire Kills; Aiōnios Basanos Is inflicted by Fire; Therefore…
Convenient again for my case, 4 Maccabees inextricably ties aiōnios basanos with fire. Consider 4 Maccabees 9:8-9:

For we, through this severe suffering and endurance, shall have the prize of virtue and shall be with God, on whose account we suffer; but you, because of your bloodthirstiness toward us, will deservedly undergo from the divine justice eternal torment by fire (aiōnios basanos dia pyr).

Knowing that the prize of virtue is immortality in endless life (4 Macc 17:12), it only makes sense to understand aiōnios basanos by fire to be a deadly punishment. To conclude otherwise, one has to imply that the author is too foolish to realize that for the tyrant to be tormented forever and ever, he would also have to receive the prize of virtue, namely immortality in endless life. The principle of charity, I think, ought to dissuade anyone from following such a course. The existence of a verse like Jude 7, where “aiōnios fire” refers to the fire that “condemned [Sodom and Gomorrah] to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly” (cf. 2 Peter 2:6; 3 Macc 2:5), makes it highly plausible that the author thought of aiōnios basanos as a deadly punishment with which no one can dwell; torment that is everlasting in that its effect—death—is everlasting.

Dealing With Two Final Verses
To tie a bow on my case, I want to address two more passages in 4 Maccabees that, at face value, may leave folks scratching their heads, wondering how my case can still hold up in light of them.

4 Maccabees 12:12
Dealing with this verse first, I think, will lead to a smooth transition to the second verse. That said, let’s turn our gaze toward 4 Maccabees 12:12, which contains the seventh son’s words to the tyrant and deserves some time in the spotlight:

Because of this, justice has laid up for you intense and aiōnios fire and tortures, and these eis holon ton aiōna will never let you go.

At this point, the phrase “aiōnios fire and tortures” should no longer be taken as problematic for my case—at least, not by itself. But what about the rest of the verse? Doesn’t it suggest that perhaps the author really did believe that aiōnios fire and tortures can be dwelt with, and that they will in fact be dwelt with for all eternity? In the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) of the Bible with Apocrypha, the phrase “eis holon ton aiōna” is translated “throughout all time.” Though I’ve been using the NRSV’s translation of 4 Maccabees throughout this article, I think “throughout all time” misses the mark. It’s not that it couldn’t mean that in isolation, or even in a different context, but that every plank in the case I’ve laid out so far suggests that it cannot mean “throughout all time.” Having said that, the question of what it does mean now naturally arises. Frankly, I think the answer is rather easy to figure out. First, let’s consider the passage leading up to verse 12:

When [the sixth] too, thrown into the caldron, had died a blessed death, the seventh and youngest of all came forward. [2] Even though the tyrant had been vehemently reproached by the brothers, he felt strong compassion for this child when he saw that he was already in fetters. He summoned him to come nearer and tried to persuade him, saying, [3] “You see the result of your brothers’ stupidity, for they died in torments because of their disobedience. [4] You too, if you do not obey, will be miserably tortured and die before your time, [5] but if you yield to persuasion you will be my friend and a leader in the government of the kingdom.” [6] When he had thus appealed to him, he sent for the boy’s mother to show compassion on her who had been bereaved of so many sons and to influence her to persuade the surviving son to obey and save himself. [7] But when his mother had exhorted him in the Hebrew language, as we shall tell a little later, [8] he said, “Let me loose, let me speak to the king and to all his friends that are with him.” [9] Extremely pleased by the boy’s declaration, they freed him at once. [10] Running to the nearest of the braziers, [11] he said, “You profane tyrant, most impious of all the wicked, since you have received good things and also your kingdom from God, were you not ashamed to murder his servants and torture on the wheel those who practice religion? [12] Because of this, justice has laid up for you intense and eternal fire and tortures, and these eis holon ton aiōna will never let you go.

In verses 3-4, we read that the first six brothers died as a result of torment. In verse 2, the tyrant has compassion on the seventh brother and gives him a chance to escape being tortured to death, which, in verse 8, results in the boy tricking the tyrant into thinking he would comply with his demands by asking him to be let loose. In verse 9, having been tricked, the tyrant’s lackeys freed the boy, but rather than complying, he scolded the tyrant. He told him that, unlike in his own case, God would not give him an opportunity to escape being tormented—and much less free him from his fetters—but would instead subject him to inescapable aiōnios fire and tortures. Presumably, what the boy envisions is that these inescapable tortures will ensure that the tyrant dies, as did his brothers. Having now considered the passage leading up to verse 12, can we now figure out a reasonable way of understanding the phrase “eis holon ton aiōna” that fits with eternal fire and tortures slaying the tyrant?

As it turns out, we can. In the Lexham English Septuagint (LES), for example, Exodus 21:5-6 reads as follows: “But if in reply the male servant says, ‘I have come to love my master and my wife and my children. I do not want to depart a free man,’ then his master will bring him to the place of God’s judgment and will bring him up to the door, up to the doorpost, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and so he will serve him throughout his life (eis ton aiōna).” Even though the phrase eis ton aiōna may literally mean “for eternity,” it is clear that it is being used as a sort of idiomatic expression meaning something like, “as long as he lives,” starting from the moment the slave’s ear is pierced. Similarly, in 1 Samuel 27:12 LXX we read: “And David was trusted by Achish completely, saying, ‘He has dishonored himself with shame among his people in Israel, and he will be a servant for me always (eis ton aiōna).’” Again, the expression here doesn’t mean that Achish expected David to serve him forever as if they would both never die, but that he would serve as long as they lived. It seems fair to conclude, then, that even if a phrase like eis ton aiōna means “for eternity,” it doesn’t preclude it from being used idiomatically.

So, in line with this, I think that eis holon ton aiōna in 4 Maccabees 12:12 refers to however long the tyrant remains alive, starting from the moment the torment begins. Thus, if I were to translate the verse according to the functional equivalence theory of translation, I would render it this way: “Because of this, justice has laid up for you intense fire and tortures of everlasting consequence, and these, as long as you live, will never let you go.”

4 Maccabees 10:11
This verse, preceding the fourth brother’s mention of eternal destruction by only four verses, records what the third brother, moments before dying, promised the tyrant would befall him:

We, most abominable tyrant, are suffering because of our godly training and virtue, [11] but you, because of your impiety and bloodthirstiness, will undergo unceasing torments (akatalytous basanous).

In the passage we just finished examining, recall that the boy said to the tyrant, “Let me loose” (12:8), and that his lackeys “freed him” (12:9). Relevant to the present verse, both instances translate the same Greek verb, lyō, which just so happens to be the root of akatalytous, translated here as “unceasing.” 4 Maccabees also happens to use the verb katalyō, which is even more closely related to akatalytous, the latter simply being the negative, adjectival form of the former. In 4 Maccabees 4:24, for example, we read that the tyrant “had not been able in any way to put an end to (katalyō) the people’s observance of the law.” Indeed, the renowned Greek-English lexicon BDAG lists “put an end to”7William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 522. as one of the definitions of katalyō. With that in mind, it seems to me that “unceasing” isn’t a very good translation of akatalytous. A far better translation, I think, would be something like “unstoppable,” communicating more directly that akatalytous basanous refers to torment that the tyrant will be not be able to put an end to; torment from which he will not be freed. While “unceasing” can convey that meaning (a thing can be unceasing within the confines of a finite timeframe8This boxing blog, for example, speaks of Lomachenko’s “unceasing pressure” in his bout against Linares. Obviously, the pressure entirely ceased when Linares went down in the tenth round and couldn’t get back up quickly enough to keep the fight going! Chasing Greatness – Lomachenko vs. Linares | BOXRAW Blog), it can also mislead a reader into thinking that the torment is unceasing in an absolute, unconfined sense. Hence, again, “unstoppable” is a better translation, since it is less likely to convey that false impression. That being said, the fact that the tyrant will be faced with unstoppable torment is precisely what ensures that his end will be eternal destruction (i.e. permanent extinction).

Summary
All things considered, I believe I’ve not only shown that an annihilationist interpretation of Matthew 10:28 wouldn’t be threatened by 4 Maccabees 13:14-15 if it taught eternal torment, but also that aiōnios basanos in 4 Maccabees doesn’t actually communicate the idea that the wicked will be tormented forever.

Indeed, the phrase is used twice in the book: once in 4 Maccabees 9:8-9 where it is directly contrasted with “the prize of virtue,” which we know to be immortality in endless life (4 Macc 17:12); and a second time in 4 Maccabees 13:14-15, a passage to which Jesus may have been alluding in Matthew 10:28, where it is beyond reason to posit that any punishment other than extinction is being described by Jesus.

By referring to immortality in endless life as “the prize of virtue,” the author delineates it as exclusively reserved for God’s athletes—that is, for those who finish the race. In the words of Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to Polycarp, “Be sober as an athlete of God: the prize set before you is immortality and eternal life” (Poly 2.3).

In addition, throughout the book, basanos consistently culminates in or causes death, a theme that would make sense if extended to aiōnios basanos also, considering that immortality in endless life is not extended to those who spit in the face of virtue.

Not only so, but it would make sense of the fact that eternal destruction—a fate that elsewhere only ever refers to permanent destruction—is reserved for the tyrant, for whom aiōnios basanos is also said to be reserved (4 Macc 9:9).

Lastly, we have seen that aiōnios basanos refers to torment that is everlasting in that its effect (or consequence), death, is everlasting—just like how aiōnios fire refers to fire that is everlasting in that its effect (or consequence), death, is everlasting. The original Jewish audience to whom this book was written would have known and understood that no one can dwell with eternal torment by fire, as common sense on its own would suggest.

References
1 John C. Johnson, “Maccabees, Fourth Book of the,” in The Lexham Bible Dictionary, ed. John D. Barry et al. (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016
2 Read Part 1 of my 3-part series of articles in response to Trent Horn to see how Irenaeus was undoubtedly an annihilationist.
3 George W. E. Nickelsburg and James C. VanderKam, 1 Enoch 2: A Commentary on the Book of 1 Enoch, Chapters 37–82, ed. Klaus Baltzer, Hermeneia—A Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2012), 218.
4 As I point out in Part 1 of my 3-part series of articles in response to Trent Horn, the notion that the unrighteous will not rise is one we find in the writings of people like Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Irenaeus of Lyons (and Polycarp, though my article does not cover him). Of course, we at Rethinking Hell do not deny that the unrighteous will rise to judgment, and I do not think that these early church fathers did either. What they mean, I think, is that only the righteous will rise indefinitely. It is reminiscent of Jesus who, despite teaching that both the righteous and the unrighteous will rise from the dead (John 5:28-29), also spoke of “those who are considered worthy to attain to… the resurrection from the dead” (Luke 20:35), as if not everybody takes part in the resurrection. It is also reminiscent of Paul who, despite saying “that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust” (Acts 24:15), also said: “I have suffered the loss of all things and count them rubbish, in order that I may… be found in Him… having a righteousness… which comes through faith in Christ… that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead” (Phil 3:8-11), as though he could fail to be counted among those who will be raised. That is because Jesus, Paul, and the four church fathers I mentioned all specifically have in mind the “resurrection of life” (Jn 5:29); the resurrection whose beneficiaries “cannot die anymore, because they… are sons of God” (Luke 20:36). Those who are not sons of God can still die, and will indeed die a second time at the resurrection of judgment (Rev. 20:14; 21:8).
5 George W. E. Nickelsburg, 1 Enoch: A Commentary on the Book of 1 Enoch, ed. Klaus Baltzer, Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress, 2001), 3.
6 Ibid., xxii–xxiii.
7 William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 522.
8 This boxing blog, for example, speaks of Lomachenko’s “unceasing pressure” in his bout against Linares. Obviously, the pressure entirely ceased when Linares went down in the tenth round and couldn’t get back up quickly enough to keep the fight going! Chasing Greatness – Lomachenko vs. Linares | BOXRAW Blog

Implications of Evangelical Conditionalism – Eternal Life Becomes More Meaningful (Vs. The Traditional View)

The reason anyone should adopt evangelical conditionalism is because it is biblical. God’s word must take precedence over other seemingly good arguments for a particular view of hell. 1 This varies among conditionalists, but if I were to take a different approach and give non-biblical arguments much stronger weight than I do, I would be a universalist. I believe that annihilationism has the strongest biblical case, traditionalism has the strongest historical case (though it is not as unassailable as many think), and universalism wins out in broad theology, philosophy, emotional appeal, etc. What follows is not meant to be strongly persuasive for that reason. If the Bible teaches something besides annihilationism (it doesn’t), then that is what matters.

Nevertheless, there has been popular demand for annihilationists to delve beyond just biblical exegesis and address other questions, such as why this debate even matters. Why should someone care or bother spending considerable time and effort to determine what the Bible teaches about hell?
Continue reading “Implications of Evangelical Conditionalism – Eternal Life Becomes More Meaningful (Vs. The Traditional View)”

References
1 This varies among conditionalists, but if I were to take a different approach and give non-biblical arguments much stronger weight than I do, I would be a universalist. I believe that annihilationism has the strongest biblical case, traditionalism has the strongest historical case (though it is not as unassailable as many think), and universalism wins out in broad theology, philosophy, emotional appeal, etc.

A Common Reformed Interpretation of Ephesians 2:1 Negates A Common Argument Against Annihilationism

In Ephesians 2:1, no one takes Paul’s description of the Ephesians as having been “dead” literally. That would have meant they were previously corpses. Instead, different sides have taken different approaches. The verse, short and sweet, tells us the following about Paul’s readers (and Christians in general, by extension):

And you were dead in your offenses and sins.

There are three main interpretations of this view that seek to make sense of this death language. The third, as will be broken down shortly below, is our focus today.

Continue reading “A Common Reformed Interpretation of Ephesians 2:1 Negates A Common Argument Against Annihilationism”

Yes, Trent Horn, Hell Is Real, and it Is Eternal – Part 3/3

~ Read Part 1 or Part 2 ~

The Smoke of Their Torment Rises Forever and Ever
Turning our attention now to Revelation 14:11, Trent says that Revelation’s account speaks of “those condemned to hell, in which ‘the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night.’” To demonstrate how this verse better supports annihilationism, let’s set our crosshairs on finding out what it means that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. Jumping ahead to Revelation 19:3, smoke is also said to rise from Babylon forever and ever, but that is not all that is said about Babylon. Smoke rising from her forever and ever is the outcome of what is said to have happened to her in the last chapter. In Revelation 18, we read that she will be burned down (18:8), that in a single hour she has been laid waste (18:19), and that, interpreting the scene for John, “a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, ‘So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more” (18:21). Far from being support for the traditional view, smoke rising is actually an idiom referring to complete destruction. Indeed, Genesis 19:28 notes that “the smoke of the land went up like smoke of a furnace” after the Lord utterly wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and sulfur (19:24-25)—the same two elements mentioned in Revelation 14:10. Now, one may try to say, “Yeah, both passages speak of smoke rising and of being afflicted with fire and sulfur, but in Revelation, unlike in Genesis, the smoke rises forever and ever, and it’s specifically the smoke of their torment, not of their destruction.” To be blunt, this argument has no teeth. Torment and destruction are not mutually exclusive. The process of being destroyed by fire is undoubtedly to experience a great deal of torment. In Revelation 18:7-9, speaking of Babylon, we read: “As much as she glorified herself and lived in luxury, give her a measure of torment and mourning… and she will be burned down with fire… the kings of the earth… will weep… when they see the smoke of her burning.” You see, Revelation’s account itself makes it clear that torment and destruction go hand in hand, speaking of smoke as the result of fiery, destructive torment. Now, concerning the “forever and ever” part, it is simply meant to intensify the idiom; it symbolizes destruction from which that which was destroyed will never return. To be sure, consider Isaiah 34:9-10, a text that refers to the destruction of Edom: “And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.” Need I point out the obvious? Edom is not still burning, nor is there literally smoke still rising from it. So, again, to be clear, smoke rising forever is not evidence of fire burning something forever; it is an idiom communicating complete destruction.

They Have No Rest Day or Night
Still in Revelation 14:11, another statement is worthy of attention, namely that beast worshippers “have no rest day or night.” According to Trent, it is “the common sense interpretation that the damned endure unending suffering.” But is that really the case? I don’t think so; common sense would not have us read this statement in a way that contradicts the fact that smoke rising communicates complete destruction. What is the correct interpretation, then? To answer that, let me suggest that the non-canonical book of Enoch might be of service. According to Robert Henry Charles, “1 Enoch has had more influence on the New Testament than has any other apocryphal or pseudepigraphic work.”1Robert Henry Charles, ed., Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, vol. 2 (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1913), 178. In harmony with Charles, Ephraim Isaac says that “there is no doubt that the New Testament world was influenced by its language and thought.”2E. Isaac, “A New Translation and Introduction,” in The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1 (New York;  London: Yale University Press, 1983), 10. Especially germane to the present case, in the next sentence, Isaac notes that 1 Enoch “influenced… Revelation (with numerous points of contact).” To begin, let’s compare Revelation 14:18-20 with 1 Enoch 100:3-4:

And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia. (Rev. 14:18-20)

The horse shall walk through the blood of sinners up to his chest; and the chariot shall sink down up to its top. In those days, the angels shall descend into the secret places. They shall gather together into one place all those who gave aid to sin. And the Most High will arise on that day of judgment in order to execute a great judgment upon all the sinners. (1 Enoch 100:3-4)

Considering that both texts speak of angels gathering sinners for a punishment that leads to an accumulation of blood as high as a horse’s chest, it seems undeniable that the language of 1 Enoch 100:3-4 influenced that of Revelation 14:18-20.3It is worth noting that Rev. 14:18-20 is the enactment of the judgment foretold in Revelation 14:9-11, and the punishment portrayed by the large pool of blood is clearly death. Now, why point out this instance of Enochic influence? Because if Revelation 14 is known to have borrowed language from 1 Enoch, then it is probably not a bad idea to consider how 1 Enoch uses language similar to what we find elsewhere in Revelation 14. Having said that, it turns out that in 1 Enoch 99:14, only 5 verses prior to 1 Enoch 100:3, we read this:

Woe to them who reject the measure and eternal heritage of their fathers
And whose souls follow after idols;
For they shall have no rest.

Coincidence? I think not. In fact, even the woe to those who “reject the measure and eternal heritage of their fathers” fits quite well with the beginning of Revelation 14, which points out that only 144,000 Israelites (12,000 per tribe) “follow the Lamb wherever he goes” (v. 4), meaning that the rest of Israel rejected the measure and eternal heritage of their fathers, which found their final and greatest expressions in Christ. That is why Jesus speaks of those who deny Him as “those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 2:9). Not only so, but are worshipers of the beast not examples of people who follow after idols? It is these who will have no rest. Here, we are faced with the question whose answer might be of service: Is the notion that they shall have no rest incompatible with death being their final fate? No, not at all. 1 Enoch 99:14 is part of a short series of woes, and in 99:11, the first woe is the following:

Woe to you who spread evil to your neighbours;
For you shall be slain in Sheol.

The fate of the wicked, according to the fifth and final section of 1 Enoch (91-107), is a violent death. The last woe is no less clear, saying that the Most High shall “destroy you all with the sword” (99:16). In the previous chapter, we read: “And now, know ye that ye are prepared for the day of destruction: wherefore do not hope to live, ye sinners, but ye shall depart and die; for ye know no ransom… Woe to you who set at nought the words of the righteous; for ye shall have no hope of life.” (98:10, 14). Further, we read that “the spirits of those who died in righteousness shall live and rejoice; their spirits shall not perish” (103:4), whereas “the names of (the sinners) shall be blotted out from the Book of Life and the books of the Holy One; their seeds shall be destroyed forever and their spirits shall be slain” (108:3). Also, similar to “they shall have no rest” in 99:14, the previous woe in 99:13 says that the wicked “shall have no peace.” Whatever “you shall have no peace” means, it is not that the wicked are expected to forever experience distress, since the previous chapter says: “Therefore they shall have no peace but die a sudden death” (98:16). Instead, it is meant to be a point of contrast with the notion that “there shall be peace to the righteous in the name of the Eternal Lord” (58:4), a peace grounded in the fact that “the days of their life shall be unending, and the days of the holy without number” (58:3). As we read elsewhere, “there shall be length of days with that Son of Man, and the righteous shall have peace and an upright way in the name of the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever” (71:17). 

Likewise, there is no reason to think that “they shall have no rest” is inconsistent with death being the punishment of the wicked. In fact, we have every reason to think otherwise. Aside from the immediate context strongly supporting that it is, we can find further evidence of this when we look at the way this kind of language is used in an earlier section of 1 Enoch. In 38:2, a rhetorical question is asked: “Where [will be] the resting place of those who have denied the Lord of Spirits?” The implied answer is, “Nowhere; they will not have a resting place.” Just a few verses later in 38:5-6, the author goes on to say that “kings and rulers shall perish” and that “no one shall be able to induce the Lord of the Spirits to show them mercy, for their life is annihilated” (Charlesworth translation – emphasis mine). Clearly, their not having a resting place does not mean they will live forever in a restless state. Indeed, in a show of sarcasm, the same author later answers his own rhetorical question, saying that “worms shall be their bed” (46:6), essentially to say, “Well, I’m not being entirely accurate in implying that they won’t have a resting place; they’ll rest in a bed of worms feasting on their corpses.” In the very next line, he adds that “they shall have no hope of rising from their beds, because they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits.” (Does that sound like an early Christian tradition we saw earlier?) 

It seems to me that “they shall have no rest” likely means one of two things. The first thing it could mean is that unlike the righteous who “shall eat and rest and rise with that Son of Man forever and ever” (62:14, Charlesworth translation – emphasis mine), the wicked will never get to enjoy resting with the Son of Man in the world to come.

The second thing it could mean is that they will have no rest during the outpouring of wrath leading to their destruction. In 63:1, we read that “kings who possess the earth implore (Him) to grant them a little respite from His angels of punishment to whom they were delivered,” and in 66:1 that “the angels of punishment… bring judgment and destruction on all who dwell on the earth.” In 63:6, still flowing from 63:1, we read that the kings will say: “We long for a little rest but find it not… And darkness is our dwelling-place for ever and ever.” To know what it means that darkness will be their dwelling place, we need only look back to 46:6 where the clause “darkness shall be their dwelling” runs directly parallel to the clause “worms shall be their bed,” meaning that they communicate the same fate. So, in 63:6, we see that the kings’ lack of rest ends in their annihilation.4“Darkness” is also used to refer to non-existence in the Old Testament. Job, for example, says: “Let the day perish on which I was born… Let that day be darkness… That night—let thick darkness seize it! Let it not rejoice among the days of the year; let it not come into the number of the months” (Job 3:3-4, 6). Either way, both possibilities are perfectly consistent with our view.

Either of these possibilities also seem like they apply well to Revelation 14:11. We can understand them having no rest as a direct point of contrast with Revelation 14:13, which says: “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on… that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” “For all good things,” says 1 Enoch 103:3, “and joy and honor are prepared for and written down for the souls of those who died in righteousness. Many good things shall be given to you—the offshoot of your labors.” Unlike the righteous who will enjoy rest with Jesus Christ in the new creation, the unrighteous will never get to enjoy such rest but will instead be deprived of continuance and length of days forever and ever. We can also understand “no rest” to refer to the time during which the angels of punishment mentioned in the passage—like in 1 Enoch 63 and 66—will be pouring out the wrath of God, ending in destruction. Again, either way, this text does nothing to tip the scales in favor of the eternal torment view. The fact that smoke rising forever can easily be demonstrated to refer to complete destruction, paired with 1 Enoch’s use of the phrase “they shall have no rest,” provides ample reason to view this text as better support for our view.

Objection!
Some may attempt to undercut my Enochic lens of interpretation by suggesting that 1 Enoch teaches eternal torment, not annihilation. Since this article is not meant to be a comprehensive treatment of 1 Enoch, I will try to brief. Recall what I said earlier: “The fate of the wicked, according to the fifth and final section of 1 Enoch (91-107), is a violent death.” 

According to Ephraim Isaac, “1 Enoch is clearly composite, representing numerous periods and writers.”5E. Isaac, “A New Translation and Introduction,” in The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1 (New York;  London: Yale University Press, 1983), 6. “Milik,” Isaac writes, “has argued for the categorization of the Ethiopic version into five primary books with the last chapter being taken as a much later addition,”6Ibid., 7. namely chapter 108. These five books are The Book of the Watchers (1-36), The Book of the Similitudes (37-71), The Book of the Astronomical Writings (72-82), The Book of Dream Visions (83-90), and the Book of the Epistle of Enoch (91-107). Robert Henry Charles concurs, saying: “The Book of Enoch was intended by its final editor to consist of five Sections, like the Pentateuch, the Psalms, Proverbs, Sirach, and many other Jewish works.” 

Importantly, he immediately follows this up by saying (emphasis mine): “Behind this apparently artificial division lies a real difference as to authorship, system of thought, and date.”7Robert Henry Charles, ed., Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, vol. 2 (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1913), 168. Indeed, of particular relevance to this article, Charles notes (again, emphasis mine): “Conflicting views are advanced on the Messiah, the Messianic kingdom, the origin of sin, Sheol, the final judgement, the resurrection, and the nature of the future life.”8Ibid., 164. So, even if it were the case that some passages outside of chapters 91-107 taught eternal torment, that would not damage my case. Whether any of the first four sections actually teach eternal torment is a debate for another time. For the purpose of this article, I want to focus only on the Book of the Epistle of Enoch. 

In his commentary on 1 Enoch, specifically under a section called “The Great Judgment According to the Epistle,” George W. E. Nickelsburg states: “As elsewhere in 1 Enoch, the judgment, when fully consummated, will be final. Judgment on the sinners is ‘destruction’ (98:3, 9, 10, 16; 99:1, 9, 16)—whether this means extinction or eternal punishment in the fires of Sheol (103:8).”9George W. E. Nickelsburg, 1 Enoch: A Commentary on the Book of 1 Enoch, ed. Klaus Baltzer, Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress, 2001), 425. It is interesting that, after pointing his readers to multiple verses that say the wicked will perish or be destroyed, he leaves open what “destruction” might refer to, considering that just one page earlier, he wrote that the author of the Epistle uses “the verb ‘to be destroyed’ or ‘to perish’ (ἀπόλλυμι, translating אבד) to designate the annihilation of the sinners who now unjustly prosper…”10Ibid., 424. (emphasis mine). The only verse that seems to make him not definitively land on the “extinction” meaning is 1 Enoch 103:7-8, to which I want to turn our attention.

But know that your souls will be brought down to Sheol, and there they will experience distress and tribulation in darkness, in nets, and in flames of fire. And your spirits will enter into a great judgment, and the great judgment shall be of all generations of the world. Woe to you, for you shall have no peace.

When we examine these verses in light of what we read shortly prior to it in the Epistle, it becomes obvious that they predict extinction as the wicked’s final lot, in line with the rest of the Epistle. Verse 7 begins by saying their “souls will be brought down to Sheol,” and we have already seen that they “shall be slain in Sheol” according to 99:11. Next, verse 8 says that their “spirits will enter into a great judgment.” Backing up just a few verses to 103:4, it is said of the righteous that their “spirits… shall live… their spirits shall not perish.” In concert with what this statement heavily implies about the result of the tribulation of the great judgment, consider 98:9-10: “Woe to you, ye fools, for through your folly shall ye perish: and ye transgress against the wise, and so good hap shall not be your portion. And now, know ye that ye are prepared for the day of destruction: wherefore do not hope to live, ye sinners, but ye shall depart and die; for ye know no ransom; for ye are prepared for the day of the great judgement, for the day of tribulation and great shame for your spirits.” Lastly, verse 8 says that the unrighteous “shall have no peace,” and as already unambiguously stated, 98:16 says that “they shall have no peace but die a sudden death.” 

Again, when we look at the language of 103:7-8 and consider how that same language is used elsewhere in the Epistle, it becomes unreasonable to conclude anything other than that the verses contain no shred of support for the eternal torment view. Therefore, the Enochic lens through which I support my reading of Revelation 14:11 stands on solid ground.

A Bit of Groundwork for Understanding Revelation 20:10
Revelation is a book in which John records an apocalyptic vision that he was given while in exile on the island of Patmos. To properly interpret certain passages therein, it is imperative for one to understand the relationship between vision (or dream) and interpretation. All throughout Scripture—from Genesis to Revelation—dreams and visions depict entities and events by means of symbolic imagery; they are not literal, straightforward descriptions of said entities and events. For example, in Revelation 1:12-16, John sees seven golden lampstands and seven stars in his vision. In Revelation 1:20, Christ interprets the vision for him, saying that “the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.” When visions and dreams are interpreted, the interpretation is the thing in reality. As a formula, it looks like: [Symbol] is [thing in reality]. Critically, symbols do not describe reality (e.g., the seven lampstands do not describe what the seven churches are) but merely symbolically represent it.

They will be tormented day and night forever and ever
Of course, Trent’s article would not have been complete if he had not raised Revelation 20:10 as support for his view. After all, it explicitly says that “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” But who, exactly, is the “they” who will experience eternal torment according to verse 10? Explicitly, the answer is the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. On this point, Trent quotes Stackhouse who says that, granting that these three are actual persons, “Revelation teaches only that they do, and we are focusing in these essays on the destiny of human beings.” To counter Stackhouse, Trent unwittingly lays a trap for himself, saying:

But this neglects what Jesus said to the wicked human beings, whom he judges on the last day: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41, emphasis mine).

If the devil will be cast into a condition where he experiences eternal torment, and Jesus says damned human beings will be cast into that same condition, then we can reasonably conclude that human beings who reject God’s offer of salvation will experience that same eternal torment.

The Fate of Death
Think with me now. In Revelation 6:8, death is symbolized as a horseman named Death, and in Revelation 20:14, Death is thrown into the lake of fire. Granting Trent’s logic, if, in the vision, the devil is cast into the lake of fire and experiences eternal torment, and Death, in the vision, will also be cast into that same lake of fire, then we can reasonably conclude that Death, in the vision, experiences that same eternal torment. Fine, that may be what the symbolic vision depicts, but the question is, “What does that symbolic vision mean in reality?” In reality, according to Revelation 21:4, “death shall be no more” (cf. 1 Cor. 15:26). By applying Trent’s reasoning, we can say that if Death experiencing eternal torment in the vision symbolizes death being no more in reality, and the symbolic vision depicts unbelievers as experiencing eternal torment, then we can reasonably conclude that unbelievers experiencing eternal torment in the vision likewise symbolizes unbelievers being no more in reality.

If Trent decides to back away from his reasoning, then Revelation 20:10 becomes entirely irrelevant in the debate over the fate of unbelievers. If he stands by his reasoning, then he merely lays a foundation that annihilationists can build upon to prove our view.

The Fate of the Beast
More to the point, despite what the fate of the beast is explicitly said to be in the symbolic vision, the beast’s fate in reality aligns with that of Death. In Revelation 17:7-8, an angel interprets part of John’s vision and says, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery… of the beast… The beast that you saw… is about to… go to destruction.” The Greek word translated “destruction” here is apoleia, which BDAG defines as “the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process,”11William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 127. listing 17:8 as an instance where the definition applies. Moreover, in the vision of Daniel 7, which foretells the same events as Revelation, the ten-horned beast (Dan. 7:24; Rev. 17:12) that rises out of the sea (Dan. 7:3; Rev. 13:1) and speaks great words against the Most High (Dan. 7:25; Rev. 13:5) is “killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire” (Dan. 7:11). So, in the vision given to Daniel, the beast is killed, whereas in the vision given to John, the beast is kept alive in torment forever and ever. Of course, a contradiction in symbolism is only problematic if there is also a contradiction in interpretation, which is not the case. In line with the angel’s interpretation in Revelation 17:8, the beast’s death in Daniel 7:11 is interpreted thus in 7:26: “[the beast’s] dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.”

The Fate of Unbelievers
So far, we have seen that both Death and the beast being thrown into the lake of fire in the vision to be tormented forever symbolizes that death and the beast will be no more. While we could safely stick by Trent’s reasoning and conclude the same will be true of unbelievers, we can do as we have just done in the case of the beast and peer deeper into the text for confirmation. Remember the formula I established using the example of Revelation 1:12-16, 20: [Symbol] is [thing in reality]. In Revelation 20:14 and 21:8, we are told that the lake of fire is the second death. Following the formula, the second death is the thing in reality, and the lake of fire merely symbolizes it. Just as the seven lampstands in 1:20 do not describe what the seven churches are, eternal torment in the lake of fire does not describe what the second death is; lampstands and the lake of fire merely symbolize churches and the second death. The unrighteous will literally die a second time, which fits well with their names not being written in the book of life. “How does a place of eternal torment symbolize dying a second time?”, one may ask. I don’t know; perhaps because the former, like the latter, ensures that one will never again experience the joys of life. How does a lampstand symbolize a church? I don’t know; perhaps because both are meant to be lights to the world. We can come up with plausible answers to these questions, but whether we are incredulous to them is inconsequential; the precise way that a certain thing symbolizes another is not always crystal clear.

The Second Death in Jewish Literature
Having earlier examined the writings of three important, early church fathers, I hope Trent will now appreciate the Jewish background of the term “second death.” In a work entitled The New Testament and Rabbinic Literature, Martin McNamara writes the following concerning the second death: “An expression used four times [in Revelation] must have been current coinage when the Apocalypse was composed.” Notably, McNamara goes on to say that the term “is found nowhere in Jewish literature outside the Targums” (emphasis mine). The Targums are, in essence, an Aramaic paraphrase of the Hebrew Scriptures. Since John almost certainly borrowed the term from the Targums, it would only make sense for us to consider how the term is employed in them. 

In Targum Jonathan on Jeremiah 51:39, 57, we read: “…they shall be like drunken men, so that they shall not be strong; and they shall die the second death, and shall not live for the world to come… And I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, her governors and her tyrants and her mighty men; and they shall die the second death and not live for the world to come…” Explicitly, according to this Targum, dying the second death results in ceasing to live. Living forever in torment, then, is not the fate communicated by the term “second death” in this Targum—annihilation is. In Hebrew, the verses say that “they will sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake,” which could be taken as denying the resurrection of the unjust, in which the Pharisees believed. To explain how the tension is only apparent, the author of the Targum clarifies that the perpetual death from which the unjust will not rise is the second death, which they will be made to face by rising from the first one. To perpetually sleep and not wake sounds nothing like living forever in torment. 

In Targum Onkelos on Deuteronomy 33:6, the author, understanding the blessing spoken in favor of Reuben to refer to the world to come, renders the verse this way: “May Reuben live an everlasting life and not die the second death…” Here, everlasting life and the second death are explicitly contrasted, meaning that the two are mutually exclusive. To further spell out the obvious, this is contrary to the traditional view, which posits that those for whom the second death is reserved will live forever. A similar rendition is offered in Targum Jonathan, which reads: “Let Reuben live in this world and not die the second death which the wicked die in the world to come…”

 In Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 65:15, we read: “You shall leave your name to my chosen for an oath, and the LORD God will slay you with the second death; but his servants, the righteous, he will call by a different name.” The second death, according to this Targum, refers to God slaying the wicked, as opposed to God rendering them immortal to suffer for eternity in the flames of Gehenna.

More could be cited to the same effect, but what is provided here should suffice. The second death, according to the Targums, is the result of God slaying the unrighteous in the world to come, such that they will not live forever in it, but sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake. If we had Jewish literature in which the term clearly bore a meaning congruent with the traditional view, then pointing to the Targums would merely balance the scales. But, seeing that “second death” is a uniquely Targumic term in the realm of Jewish literature, and it clearly refers to annihilation, the weight of the evidence here falls entirely on the side of conditional immortality.

The Eternal Fire Prepared for the Devil and his Angels
Lastly, what are we to think will result from the wicked being cast into eternal fire? We have already seen that Irenaeus thinks it will result in everlasting death. Is he correct? Most definitely. The phrase “eternal fire” is only used three times in Scripture, counting the verse Trent quoted, namely Matthew 25:41. 

In Matthew 25:41, no one would dispute that eternal fire is what inflicts “eternal punishment,” a phrase we find five verses later. We have already concluded that it makes most sense to understand eternal punishment as a reference to everlasting death, seeing that it is contrasted with eternal life, a “reward for the sheep,” in Trent’s words. The goats, then, to whom the reward will not be given, will be destroyed—cut off from life—in the eternal fire.

Earlier in Matthew 18:8-9, the same conclusion makes most sense. In verse 8, the phrase “eternal fire” is used, and in verse 9, the phrase “Gehenna of fire” is used as a synonymous parallel, meaning that eternal fire and Gehenna of fire refer to one and the same fate. This is key since the meaning of Gehenna of fire can be reasonably inferred by looking to the Old Testament. Gehenna is a Greek transliteration of a Hebrew abbreviation of “Valley of the Son of Hinnom,” namely Gehinnom. Concerning this valley, we read the following in Jeremiah 7:31-33:

And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. [32] Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. [33] And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away.

The image that Jesus was evoking in the minds of his listeners in Matt. 18:8-9 was one of people being violently killed, not of eternal torment. This also makes more sense of Jesus saying “It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.” He is saying that it is better to cripple yourself and remain alive than it is to keep all your members and be slain; or that it is better to lose only part of yourself than to lose all of yourself. To quote again the words of Irenaeus: “And just as then, those who led vicious lives, and put other people astray, were condemned and cast out, so also even now the offending eye is plucked out, and the foot and the hand, lest the rest of the body perish in like manner” (4.27.4).

Last but certainly not least, Jude 7 says that “Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities… serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” By the phrase “eternal fire,” Jude is referring to the fire by which Sodom and Gomorrah were reduced to ashes in Genesis 19. Indeed, Peter, in a parallel passage (2 Pet. 2:6), says that “by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.” Not only so, but everywhere these two infamous cities are cited as examples of what awaits the ungodly, both in Scripture and intertestamental literature, it is never in reference to any sort of ongoing experience in the afterlife, but always to what happened to them as described in the Genesis account (cf. Isaiah 13:19; Jeremiah 50:40; Luke 17:29; 3 Maccabees 2:5; Wisdom 10:6; Sirach 16:8-9; Jubilees 20:5). Traditionalists sometimes try to suggest that unlike its parallel in 2 Peter, and unlike all these other passages that refer to a past, completed event, Jude is referring to present-day suffering in the afterlife. To support this, they make much of the fact that Jude says that the cities serve as an example “by undergoing” rather than “by having undergone” a punishment of eternal fire. But of course, even to this day, when we refer to the destruction of the two cities, it is entirely correct to say that these cities serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire in the past, or in the pages of Genesis. After citing instances where God destroyed people for being disobedient, Paul writes this in 1 Corinthians 10:11:

These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come.

If I said to you, “Christ serves as an example of love by suffering death on behalf of others,” you would immediately know that either a phrase like “in the past” is implied in my statement, or that I am referring to Christ suffering in the gospel accounts, wherein His selfless act is carried along through time; a single historical moment forever occurring in the pages of Scripture. Either of these options are inarguably preferable to the traditionalist proposition, considering that it makes Jude 7 disanalogous to its New Testament parallel, and makes it into an exception among every other mention of the infamous cities undergoing punishment. 

Again, there is no reason for taking Matthew 25:41 as support for the view that unbelievers, and even the devil, will be tormented forever and ever. Indeed, this text only bolsters our view, and suggests that the devil, like the beast and Death for whom eternal torment symbolizes being no more, will also be no more, despite what the vision symbolically depicts his fate to be. In this way, destroying all evil, the Lord will accomplish his “plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth” (Eph. 1:10).

The reason fire which only burns its subjects for a brief time before reducing them to ashes is called “eternal fire” is because it proceeds from God, the eternal “consuming fire” (Heb. 12:29) whose breath is “like a stream of sulfur” (Isa. 30:33), from whom fire and sulfur rained on Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:24).

My Final Appeal to Trent Horn
Trent, if you truly took the time to read and digest everything written in this long-winded response, thank you. I hope you found it persuasive; if not persuasive enough to adopt our view, then at least persuasive enough for you to seriously begin considering it. As you’ve seen, our view rests not only on solid biblical grounds, but also on important early figures like Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus of Lyons, and even finds support from Jewish sources like 1 Enoch and the Targums. As much as this article covers, it is still nowhere near everything Scripture, the early church, and Jewish literature have to offer. Please, if you have any questions or comments, or if you would like to talk about this on a private call, feel free to reach out. God bless you and your family.

~ Read Part 1 or Part 2 ~

References
1 Robert Henry Charles, ed., Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, vol. 2 (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1913), 178.
2 E. Isaac, “A New Translation and Introduction,” in The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1 (New York;  London: Yale University Press, 1983), 10.
3 It is worth noting that Rev. 14:18-20 is the enactment of the judgment foretold in Revelation 14:9-11, and the punishment portrayed by the large pool of blood is clearly death.
4 “Darkness” is also used to refer to non-existence in the Old Testament. Job, for example, says: “Let the day perish on which I was born… Let that day be darkness… That night—let thick darkness seize it! Let it not rejoice among the days of the year; let it not come into the number of the months” (Job 3:3-4, 6).
5 E. Isaac, “A New Translation and Introduction,” in The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1 (New York;  London: Yale University Press, 1983), 6.
6 Ibid., 7.
7 Robert Henry Charles, ed., Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, vol. 2 (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1913), 168.
8 Ibid., 164.
9 George W. E. Nickelsburg, 1 Enoch: A Commentary on the Book of 1 Enoch, ed. Klaus Baltzer, Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress, 2001), 425.
10 Ibid., 424.
11 William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 127.

Yes, Trent Horn, Hell Is Real, and it Is Eternal – Part 2/3

~ Read Part 1 or Part 3 ~

Their Worm Does Not Die, and the Fire Is Not Quenched
Returning (finally) to Trent’s article, speaking of eternal torment, he writes: “It’s no wonder the traditional reading of scripture favors this view, given that Jesus said in Mark 9:48 that hell is a place ‘where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” Forgive me for being pedantic, but doesn’t Trent’s statement essentially mean, “It’s no wonder the eternal torment interpretation favors the eternal torment view”? I assume he meant something like, “It’s no wonder the traditional way people have understood scripture is what it is, given that…” Pedantry over. 

A bit later, referring back to Mark 9:48, he asks: “Moreover, if the ultimate fate of the wicked is their destruction, then why did Jesus say they will be cast into unquenchable fire or be consumed by worms that never die?” So much to say here. Firstly, before I answer the question, let me tweak your question and throw it back to you, Trent: If the ultimate fate of the wicked is not their destruction, then why did Jesus say to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Matt. 10:28)? And why did Paul say that they will be punished with eternal destruction (2 Thess. 1:9)? Secondly, ever since I’ve become a conditionalist, I’ve often wanted to slap myself upside the head for not having realized sooner how nonsensical it is to think of the term “unquenchable fire” as obvious support for eternal torment. Trent even italicized the word “unquenchable” to make sure we don’t miss it. Suppose a firefighter called you while you were at work and said, “We’re terribly sorry, sir. We’re calling to tell you that your neighbour alerted us that your house is on fire, so we’re on site now, but the fire is unquenchable.” Upon hearing the word “unquenchable,” what would you expect to find upon arriving at the scene? No more house. It is precisely the fact of being told that the fire is unquenchable that would make you expect to find nothing but a pile of rubble. So, far from being support for eternal torment, even a surface-level reading of the text lends itself better to our view. 

But what if we go deeper? Well, the phrase, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” is taken from Isaiah 66:24, according to which it is dead bodies that will be subject to these things after the wicked have been slain (cf. Isa. 66:15-16), not immortal people. The worm (or maggot) that “does not die” (not “never dies” as Trent writes in italics) and the fire that “is not quenched” are consuming agents (Job 24:20; Isaiah 30:33), not everlasting torture devices. They are like the birds of the air and beasts of the earth of Jeremiah 7:31-33 whom “none will frighten away,” such that they will not fail to consume the dead bodies of God’s slaughtered enemies. In 2 Samuel 21:10, Rizpah, the daughter of Aiah, after her two sons were hanged, “did not allow the birds of the air to come upon them by day, or the beasts of the field by night” because it was dishonoring for a dead body to not be given a proper burial but instead be consumed in the open for anyone to see. So, stated clearly, all it means for the worm to not die and the fire to not be quenched is that neither of them will be prevented by those things from consuming the corpses; it doesn’t mean the worm will never die, or that the fire will never go out. In Proverbs 23:13-14, the same Hebrew phrase (לֹא מוּת) translated “does not die” in Isaiah 66:24 is used this way: “Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die (לֹא מוּת). If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.” Obviously, this does not mean that the child will never die, but simply that he will not do so prematurely. Returning to fire that is “not quenched,” Scripture’s use of this term fits perfectly with the house example; it refers to fire that is not prevented from consuming that which it burns (Jer. 17:27; Ezek. 20:47; Matt. 3:12).

Unquenchable Fire in Ignatius’ Letter to the Ephesians
Before moving on, I want to allot a few words to a particular quote from Ignatius that I purposely did not mention earlier because I thought it would be better to do so here. On the Catholic Answers website (the website on which Trent’s article is published), in an article entitled What the Early Church Believed: Hell, Ignatius is presented as though he believed in eternal torment on the basis of a single quote: “Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if those who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupts by evil teaching the faith of God for which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him” (Eph 16.1-2). 

For one to look at this quote and automatically conclude that Ignatius believed in eternal torment is for one to reveal that he is completely unfamiliar with the terrain of the debate. Unquenchable fire is a term taken straight from Scripture, and both annihilationists and traditionalists think that Scripture uses this term to communicate their respective views, so the mere use of a term like this on Ignatius’ part should not be considered support for either side. To know how Ignatius understands the term, we need to see if Ignatius elaborates on his view either in the immediate context, or in the rest of his writings. Let’s take a closer look at the quote: “if those who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupts… the faith of God… A man so foul will depart into unquenchable fire…” Considering the flow of thought, the following paraphrase seems like the most appropriate interpretation of the quote: “Seeing that corrupters of families suffer death as a consequence, how much more deservedly will corrupters of the faith of God suffer death by means of unquenchable fire.” This reading not only fits better with the immediate context, but with everything else we have read from Ignatius.

… but the righteous into eternal life
Still intimating that the traditional view is the obvious teaching of Scripture, Trent writes that Jesus “also declared that after the Last Judgment the wicked, ‘will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’” Again, I can hardly believe I didn’t realize sooner how silly the traditional reading of this text really is. Trent continues: “But annihilationists say we are hastily assuming that Jesus is talking about the traditional concept of hell. They contend that the word “eternal” (Greek aionion) in Matthew 25:46 refers to ‘the age to come.’” Though that is indeed the contention of some annihilationists, it is not that of us at Rethinking Hell. We simply contend that aionion means “unending,” both when it qualifies “punishment” and when it qualifies “life.” 

With that in mind, consider that “eternal punishment” is directly contrasted with “eternal life.” Eternal life, by the way, is exactly what it sounds like: living forever. Jesus is pretty clear about this in John 6, where instead of “eternal life” he sometimes says  “live forever” (vv. 51 and 58) or “not die” (v. 50).1John 17:3 is sometimes cited as evidence that eternal life more specifically refers not merely to living forever, but to living forever while knowing God and Jesus Christ in the relational sense. But this is to misunderstand “this IS eternal life, that…” as using an “is” of identity, rather than an “is” of result. In reality, what Jesus means here is that to know God and Jesus Christ results in eternal life. In John 12:50, he speaks the same way, saying that “[the Father’s] commandment IS eternal life,” by which he means that the Father’s commandment results in eternal life. Whatever the punishment is, it cannot include the reward with which the punishment is contrasted, namely life, leaving no room for the punishment to be anything other than death. Not only does life being contrasted with death make more sense than life being contrasted with a punishment that necessarily includes life, but in Romans 6:23, the punishment that Paul explicitly contrasts with eternal life is, in fact, death. The same is true of John 3:16, which contrasts eternal life with perishing. I mean, seriously, how can it be any clearer? The punishment is death; the unrighteous will never be brought back to life; ergo, the punishment is unending. Very simple. The word “punishment” (κόλασις) in Matthew 25:46 is just a generic word for punishment that can, in fact, refer to the death penalty, as it does in places like 2 Maccabees 4:38, 3 Maccabees 7:10, 14, and Wisdom of Solomon 19:4-5. Now, I do not mean this disrespectfully, but what Trent goes on to write is poorly articulated and thought out. For ease of reference, here’s the relevant section:

But annihilationists say we are hastily assuming that Jesus is talking about the traditional concept of hell. They contend that the word “eternal” (Greek aionion) in Matthew 25:46 refers to “the age to come.” It can refer to unending duration of life, like in John 10:28, when Jesus says, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.” But it can also refer to actions that have eternal effects even though the actions no longer continue, as in Hebrews 9:11-12, in which Paul says we will have “eternal redemption” even though Christ redeeming death on the cross is complete. According to Basil Atkinson, “The lost will not be passing through a process of punishment forever but will be punished once and for all with eternal results.”
To say something’s destruction has “eternal results,” however, stretches the meaning of “eternal” and “results” beyond their breaking point. What people fear from punishment is not its results but the punishment itself.

Considering that Trent never pushes back on the contention of some annihilationists that “aionion punishment” means “punishment of the age to come,” it is difficult to understand why he even mentions it. Almost as if he never mentioned it, he just moves on to introduce a wholly distinct annihilationist argument: the Hebrews 9:12 argument. This argument, then, is the one I will now address. 

In Matthew 25:46, we say that the word punishment refers to the punishment itself (i.e., what the punishment is), not to the punishing (i.e., the infliction of the punishment), and that it is the former that is unending, not the latter. As a linguistically analogous instance, we point out that in Hebrews 9:12 (among other verses), the word “redemption” in the phrase “eternal redemption,” in like manner, refers to the redemption itself, not to the process of redeeming, and that while the former is unending, the latter is not. Similarly, the gold standard of Greek lexicons, BDAG, understands the phrase “eternal judgment” in Hebrews 6:2 to refer to a “judgment whose decision is valid eternally,”2William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 567. not to an eternal process of judging.

None of this, mind you, necessitates that we speak of “eternal results” (though some annihilationists do); we can simply say, as I said before, that the punishment is death, and that since this death will never be reversed, the punishment is everlasting. That said, I want to defend those who do speak of “eternal results” by clearing up what they mean, and by addressing what Trent says about this way of articulating our view. The quote from Basil Atkinson, reworded, simply means, as should be clear by now, that though the punishing process will be finite, the punishment inflicted during that finite punishing process will endure forever. 

In response to Atkinson, Trent says that “to say something’s destruction has eternal results… stretches the meaning of ‘eternal’ and ‘results’ beyond their breaking point.” Really? Kind of like how traditionalists stretch the meanings of “death,” “perish” and “destruction” beyond their breaking points? No, because unlike those examples, the words “eternal” and “results” are not being stretched at all. If God destroys the unrighteous and they forever remain gone, then God’s process of destroying does, in fact, have eternal results. Trent tries to substantiate his claim by saying: “What people fear from punishment is not its results but the punishment itself.” Okay, so if a rapist is sentenced to castration, fear of never being able to enjoy sex again is off the table? Ludicrous. Besides, even if I were to grant the point, “the punishment itself” (death), as Trent puts it, is precisely what Atkinson means by “results”; death is the eternal result of the punishing process (God destroying), so Trent has totally missed the point. Now, how does Trent support the idea that the word ‘eternal’ is being stretched? By saying that this “interpretation also doesn’t make sense of the parallelism that Jesus is clearly employing to contrast the rewards for the sheep with the punishments for the goats.” To explain this, he quotes Augustine in his City of God (21.23.1):

If both destinies are “eternal,” then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative—on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end.3Augustine of Hippo, “The City of God,” in St. Augustin’s City of God and Christian Doctrine, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. Marcus Dods, vol. 2, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1887), 469.

Funny enough, this argument is precisely one of the arguments that we at Rethinking Hell are fond of using to argue against universalism. Well put, Augustine! However, as I have said multiple times now, we believe that the punishment is death, and that this death will never be reversed, and therefore that the punishment is eternal. Nothing about the word “eternal” is being stretched—whether we say that the punishment itself is eternal, or that the result of the punishing process is eternal, the word refers to an endless duration. So, not only does Trent’s appeal to Augustine’s argument miserably fail, but Augustine himself would not have used this argument (or, at least, I doubt he would have) to argue against conditional immortality. The quote is taken from a section in which Augustine is specifically arguing against universalism, not annihilationism. In fact, earlier in the very same book (21.11.1), Augustine asks this question concerning the punishment of death:

Then as to the award of death for any great crime, do the laws reckon the punishment to consist in the brief moment in which death is inflicted, or in this, that the offender is eternally banished from the society of the living?4Ibid., 463.

Put in the form of a statement, Augustine is here affirming that laws, in fact, reckon the death penalty to consist in the fact that the offender is eternally banished from the society of the living, meaning that the man to whom Trent turned for support is of no help to him at all. Instead, he only confirms that we are correct in understanding death to be an eternal punishment. Trent is a very intelligent man; the weakness of his argumentation is either a testament to the strength of the case for conditional immortality, or evidence that he did not take the task seriously.

~ Read Part 1 or Part 3 ~

References
1 John 17:3 is sometimes cited as evidence that eternal life more specifically refers not merely to living forever, but to living forever while knowing God and Jesus Christ in the relational sense. But this is to misunderstand “this IS eternal life, that…” as using an “is” of identity, rather than an “is” of result. In reality, what Jesus means here is that to know God and Jesus Christ results in eternal life. In John 12:50, he speaks the same way, saying that “[the Father’s] commandment IS eternal life,” by which he means that the Father’s commandment results in eternal life.
2 William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 567.
3 Augustine of Hippo, “The City of God,” in St. Augustin’s City of God and Christian Doctrine, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. Marcus Dods, vol. 2, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1887), 469.
4 Ibid., 463.