No question this is a turning point. By genius licensing agreements (Gates' mom and dad crafted?), MS has had a cash cow of getting paid for every PC built for years. An empire was spawned and all that goes with it.

The PC quit being very private beginning with Win95, and today's Vista coupled with the internet yields a desktop that is a rather Orwellian device.

A business/development desktop may very well need to run MS, but for personal use this could be a great alternative.

It's also interesting that a typical "decent" Windows home PC costs about $680 today and that Windows is about 12% of that price.

I remember in the Windows 98 days when I was at Microsoft the price the company sold Windows to Dell for was $28 and I'd guess the equivalent decent home PC was more like $1000, or only about 3% of the total price.

Granted, there are lots of other variables in that comparison, but the cost of Windows relative to the cost of the actual PC has certainly risen to the point where it's something the customer is likely to think about.

David, yep, that's the ratio of software cost to hardware cost that I alluded to in the first few paragraphs of my previous entry:

https://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000868.html

It's basically a side effect of hardware becoming increasingly inexpensive. To be fair to MS (and anyone else who sells commercial software) a 2007 $100 software package does a heck of a lot more than the 1998 $100 package.. and software prices are cheaper once you factor in inflation.

Still, it's hard to compete with 'free', especially when 'free' is getting pretty damn good through sheer evolutionary force.

You have been able to buy a machine from Dell with free-dos for a while now, but having a Linux option is nice.

There is no "free" in this. Dell will bear support costs for the OS but will they get enough markup to make this work out? If they can get a workable support model then they may come out ahead. Sales will need to show some good numbers.

The OS was always the marginal money maker at MS. Office has and always will be where the money is. You should read up on how Bill tried the Mac OEM'd and lamented that on a $2500 computer system the OS really only represented a couple of percent, but the Office suite at between $400 and $1000. Now that was a good business. Bill at one point stated that he expected fully half of MS revenues to come from sales of Mac software.
Later Bill smartened up and realized that in order to mass market Office he would need to build his own OS that we be capable of running the software MS wanted to write or more importantly sell.

This could end up orienting a lot of people towards Linux. Given that todays consumers are typically interested in price almost as much as they are in function, and that 12% is a very significant portion for essentially the same functionality, this could see a lot of users switching to Linux.

We have all the Linux users constant demands on Dell's customer relations blog. If the purchasing anywhere near echo's the demands they have been placing, this could be the start of a new trend.

Dell sold PCs with Linux on them a couple of years ago, but made it a little harder to actually get them (especially for private customers), without much (if any) cost savings.

I'm glad to see they're going this route, especially since I usually have a Windows license I can use somewhere if I need it. Now if they could work on the quality of their hardware I might actually see a Dell laptop in my future (though still a distant future given that my current laptop is only a few months old).

The 2 specs are not exactly the same:
with a GMA 950 you can hardly play games or run Aero smoothly (or maybe cannot run it at all), so if you want to run Vista you have to buy the other one.
Furthermore, the GMA X3000 costs more then the GMA 950, so maybe "the real" price difference is a bit less than 80$

Cheers

Integrated Intel GMA X3000
Integrated Intel GMA 950

doesn't look the same to me...

AI - your implicit assumption is either that Dell bears no support costs for Windows or that the support costs for Ubuntu are higher. Given how little the average user cares about being "computer literate" I don't necessarily think that's true: either one will be hard to use.

Go try to spec out an Ubuntu laptop at Dell, and you'll notice that software support is an add-on, and that the money goes to Canonical, not Dell. Hardware support is still Dell's responsibility, however.

I have a Vista-based laptop with a GMA 950, and Aero work just fine. My old work laptop had the 900 series graphics and ran the Beryl cube almost flawlessly as well.

I haven't tried gaming on them (they're probably terrible), but for OS / desktop graphics they're both quite capable.

While it is obviously true that hardware has gotten cheaper and software more expensive in this example the cheaper cost of free hardware is not quite as dramatic as noted. For one, as pointed out, the specs are not quite same and as for Dell buying windows for $28 - 1) that doesn't mean they sold it to the consumer for that price Would they not mark it up some? I'd say at least 100% just to pay for support calls 2) $28 1998 dollars is about $35 today and IF they did mark it up that puts the cost to the consumer at roughly $70. It would be remarkable if in fact MS was only getting $5 more ($10 to the consumer) for their OS because that isn't even beating inflation.

Anyway I think it is fantastic that Dell is doing this. It is true that you can get FreeDOS from both Dell and the other behemoth HP but few consumers will ever do that and it is a huge step in the right direction from charging people MORE to ship a OS-less machine as they were doing a few months ago.

I wonder who they think will buy this setup. The budget-oriented home user? The guys that flooded their forum asking for this to happen, but already run Linux at home? Any new user that is not tech savvy and has never used Ubuntu before has a great chance of needing the "Starter Support" making the price get closer to the Windows versions again.
Frankly I expected to see some configurations with lighter CPUs/RAM specs to take advantage of the supposedly lower system requirements of Linux. The laptop looks interesting, though.
I also agree that this is an important event, regardless of it sells well or not.

Actually, there are some significant differences in the configs of the two units. The E520 (the Vista unit) includes some things that aren't included with the E520N (the Ubuntu unit):

- Mouse (and no option to add one for the E520N)
- Modem (ditto above)
- "Better" integrated graphics
- "Software" (MS Works 8, Yahoo! Music, Corel Photo, etc. Bloatware, I know, and there are free alternatives, but still....)
- 6 months AOL (I now, but it's still "free")

I've also noticed that some options (most noticeably some displays and printers) are more expensive -- sometimes by quite a bit -- for the Ubuntu unit.

The two machines have different video adapters as others have pointed out, with the Vista laptop getting the nicer one.

The following URL has description of the differences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA

--Respect; // :(

This reminds of a story about an user who refused the EULA and demanded a refund from Dell:
https://www.linuxworld.com/news/2006/110706-dell-windows.html

He got $105 returned for not using XP...

It's true that the GMA X3000 is more powerful than the GMA 950, but they're still both integrated graphics, so neither is particularly good:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Graphics-Media-Accelerator-950.2177.0.html

3DMark06 scores:
GMA 950 -- 170
GMA X3000 -- 626

So yes the X3000 is 3.6x faster, but 626 is still a fairly low score. It's equivalent to the GeForce Go 7200.

Well a GeForce Go 7200 level of device is still enough to run Half-Life 2 (maybe not with all the settings up) and quite a few other games. It also will be enough to take some of the strain from the CPU when running Aero.

So for somebody who is only a more 'casual' gamer, then it isn't too bad.

Personally I'd always go for a decent graphics add in card, but it isn't for everybody.

-Perros-

IMHO you are missing one point...

In this case Ubuntu it's not for free, there is surely a fee to install, test it and support the Ubuntu community.

I can guess that the real price of the "naked" hardware should be $550, so the Ubuntu's fee it's $49.

This is absolutely legitimate! Open source needs money to take its place.

In the next weeks, I guess, Microsoft will raise down the prize of the OEM license.

BTW this is fresh air for the market!

I think you'll find that Dell get paid for putting on those extra applications (AOL, Yahoo! Music etc), so some of the $50 difference in the perceived difference will account for that. It's one of the many ways Dell drives their prices down whilst maintaining a profit.

It makes me wonder if people will buy the Ubuntu version and install a pirated XP on it?

The X3000 adds hardware T&L units, pixel shaders, vertex shaders and WMV9 (VC-1) video acceleration. And Intel has fully open source drivers included in X.org that support all of it. Dell didn't remove it because of lack of support (cheapskates).

And Dell has sold hardware with no OS for a long time. All of their servers have that option (you don't pay thousands for Server 2k3 when you're running RHEL). My org buys all of our servers from Dell + Apple, and even the Dells that will run windows get bought with no OS license (we get it direct at edu pricing).

They've sold workstations with Red Hat in years past too.

No mouse; no modem; video card that won't even run hardware T&L games (as opposed to the other one which will) - yeah they're both integrated junk, but as Jeff said, one runs over 3x as fast as the other - and a GeForce 7200 approximate quality is not really that bad to be honest - I'd hazard a safe guess that the X3000 may even run Neverwinter Nights 2 with moderate settings.

Add up the costs of the difference, I wouldn't be too surprised if it's near-as-heck to the $80 "savings".

Dell has been selling PCs with some free version of DOS (Not from MS) in India for quite some time:

https://dellstore01.sg.dell.com/public/catalog.jsp?c=IN&sid=12168927&uvst=07168940578451558

Errr... Seems to me either you don't game or do graphics-intensive stuff and don't care about graphics, or you're going to buy a real graphics card anyway.

It seems that Dell has updated there website to change the specifications of the machines to prevent people from comparing like you have done.

I predict Dell will sell a couple of thousand at most, then withdraw them for being uneconomic.

Raymond Chen wrote something about focus groups saying they'd pay X amount for a given feature, then when the product actually arrived in the market, it didn't sell.

Never bought a Dell PC, but the Windows that comes with PC's is usually a hardware-tied OEM license with just a recovery disk tied to that hardware. So even experienced Windows users who've been bitten by this might prefer to order the Linux version and buy a full Windows license separately.

I think the one thing that Vista has taught me is that drivers do matter. Just getting a box that runs UBuntu, does not mean you can load Vista on it without problems. Hardware vendors do not always buy the "exact" same hardware that is available to joe user at CompUSA. Therefore the drivers that are available from the hardware vendor's may not work perfectly for that tweaked hardware that Dell put into your box.

So before buying the Linux box and throwing Visat on it, remember that Dell only provides support for the OS that they installed. If you have problems and call Dell, they will likely have you "re-install" the original OS as part of the troubleshooting process.

Well, I'm tech-savvy enough to handle ubuntu. It will do all of my e-mail, web browsing and office-like stuff fine. Some of my machines at work run various linux distros.

But I can't run Civilization IV at home under linux. If someone could post some links, I might try it sometime.

Until I can run MS Windows games, I'm not planning to switch my home PC to linux (or Apple). When I can, I'll switch pretty quickly. However, I don't expect to see Civ IV out for linux anytime soon.

People always complain about the MS tax in reference to installing other OS's on a machine. What about us MSDN members that are essentially paying for Windows unnecessarily when it is contained in our MSDN memberships? Bah!

While asking "who will buy this" is a question every company should ask, in this case, it's already been answered: I will. Me, and other Linux users, will be buying Dell from now on, just as we buy Intel for graphics and non-Broadcom for wireless. We're used to buying from companies that pay attention; the Thinkpad line, for example, was always known for its good Linux compatibility. Even though it was not officially supported, you'll find greater-than-average Thinkpad use among Linux users to this day.

The Linux community is relatively small, compared to the group of XP/Vista users, but we (A) buy more hardware than most and (B) know good computers when we see them. When it's time for me to get a new desktop (Probably sometime this summer), it's going to be one of these.

I'm not sure it matters the value in the hardware -- the fact that I can buy a computer from Dell, and know that I'm not putting money into the pocket of a company I very much dislike, and knowing that I'm not tied to them via any means makes me happy.

The principle of the matter alone is enough to make me buy.

I'm so glad that Dell has finally done something right. I use Linux (Ubuntu) myself, so now I may actually have /some/ incentive to buy a pre-built computer.

I thought that they originally sold computers with NO OS on them (a while ago), but those actually cost more than buying it with the Microsoft OS, because they lost money if you didn't buy Windows.

At any rate, this may help push Linux out there, thumbs up to Dell ^^,

>>>
- Mouse (and no option to add one for the E520N)
<<<

eh... Alright. That's what, $5? $10? *shrug*

>>>
- Modem (ditto above)
<<<

ROFL. The lack of that would actually INCREASE the worth of the system, imho.

>>>
- "Better" integrated graphics
<<<

Yup. But it's all relative. Folks mentioned that you needed the 'better' one if you wanted to run all of the crazy graphics stuff in Vista, but that isn't quite the point... The people buying a prebuilt system from Dell (especially a Ubuntu one) aren't typically looking to replace it with another Windows OS.

>>>
- "Software" (MS Works 8, Yahoo! Music, Corel Photo, etc. Bloatware, I know, and there are free alternatives, but still....)
<<<

You seem to forget that Ubuntu comes with software too. Open Office. Gimp. Chat apps. Music players. Plenty 'o stuff.

>>>
- 6 months AOL (I now, but it's still "free")
<<<

Wow. Sounds like it would go GREAT with that modem... heh.

Again, where's the value for the amateur customer?
(is there even a such thing anymore?)

What's the point in buying a system that has less than 5% of the supported products exposed commercially. Go to PC Connection, NewEgg, Best Buy... logical places for amateur or casual users to go for software, peripherals, and support.

Find me a Linux version of Photoshop, in a box, on a shelf. Microsoft Word? with a one-click install? no? Will Half-Life 2 run on Linux?

Will that new fancy 8Mpxl camera their son/daughter bought them plug seamlessly into Ubuntu? What about that disk-defragmenting software that the sales associate insisted they needed the last time they were at Best Buy? They were there to purchase a game, so their grandchildren could use the PC when they came to visit. Think Grandma will read the license agreement before breaking the seal on the box & mounting the CD?

(Remember that Grandma is no longer -your- grandmother... I'm talking boomers here)

Forget about going to Border's and getting a quality book on using your new computer to surf the internet.

Computers are not cars. Knowledge is a barrier to use, and the best way to cross it is to pick the most well published, well supported, most saturated products, and that path leads to Redmond.

Linux cannot win until:
1. A niche market like Apple develops a "gotta have" Linux-based solution.
2. A federation of consumer software firms decides that Linux-compatibility is a must for all of their products (and prove they can make a boatload of money doing it to their shareholders).

We talk about all these SaaS tools, and the browser being the new O.S., freeware, open source, and the greater good, but the bottom line is still shrink-wrapped boxes and books on shelves. Show me the money.

Looking at the Ubuntu site, perhaps Kubuntu is preferred?

(original post got mangled due to formatting quirk)

>Mouse (and no option to add one for the E520N)<

That's, like, what -- $5? 10? It's definitely something that should be addressed, I agree... After all, we'll never get to the point of someone's Mom buying a Ubuntu system if it doesn't even come with a mouse. That being said, though, if we're looking just at price, it's pretty inconsequential.

>Modem (ditto above)<

Modem? ROFL. Honestly, I'd consider the lack of that as an INCREASE in value.

>"Better" integrated graphics<

All relative, I guess. Vista has more graphic requirements than Ubuntu. But comparitively, if the one with Vista is adequate for Vista and the one with Ubuntu is adequate for Ubuntu, what does it matter? Anyone using it for "gaming" is going to upgrade to a real video card, anyhow, on either OS.

>"Software" (MS Works 8, Yahoo! Music, Corel Photo, etc. Bloatware, I know, and there are free alternatives, but still....)<

Umm.. Ubuntu comes with things like Open Office, Gimp, music players, Instant Messengers, etc. What's your point?

>6 months AOL (I now, but it's still "free")<

Wow. Sounds like it would go GREAT with that modem... heh.

(refuse to give up -- Jeff, your comment thing hates me)

"Mouse (and no option to add one for the E520N)"

That's, like, what -- $5? 10? It's definitely something that should be addressed, I agree... After all, we'll never get to the point of someone's Mom buying a Ubuntu system if it doesn't even come with a mouse. That being said, though, if we're looking just at price, it's pretty inconsequential.

"Modem (ditto above)"

Modem? ROFL. Honestly, I'd consider the lack of that as an INCREASE in value.

"'Better' integrated graphics"

All relative, I guess. Vista has more graphic requirements than Ubuntu. But comparitively, if the one with Vista is adequate for Vista and the one with Ubuntu is adequate for Ubuntu, what does it matter? Anyone using it for "gaming" is going to upgrade to a real video card, anyhow, on either OS.

"'Software' (MS Works 8, Yahoo! Music, Corel Photo, etc. Bloatware, I know, and there are free alternatives, but still....)"

Umm.. Ubuntu comes with things like Open Office, Gimp, music players, Instant Messengers, etc. What's your point?

"6 months AOL (I now, but it's still 'free')"

Wow. Sounds like it would go GREAT with that modem... heh.

No, you have been able to buy systems from Dell before with Linux preinstalled, but only for short periods of time before they pulled the line due to pressure from MS. See

https://catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html#msoft

Also see footnote 44 on the same page with links to articles going back to '99 on Dell's various Linux offerings/retractions/clarifications.

Kevin..
The argument is not that the equipment is good or not (majority of Dell labeled OEM stuff tends to be cheap junk anyway); it's about the cost difference in the two systems hardware not showing a real divorce of the MS Tax.
Like the Ford dealer that says you get a free TV with every Ford car bought; you can be darn sure he's added the cost price of the TV to the price you pay, one way or another.

As an aside; junk though it may be, the X3000 is actually better than I originally thought; it would be worth your while to look into the technical details before passing it off as typical Intel Junk (which the IG chips usually are). Some of the design factors are fairly strong in comparison to the GF7 series; it also features a unified programmable pipeline - which is also found in the GF8-series - and a fast core.
Er, sorry for the boring sidenote all.

Brandon,

Part of the reason that you don't pay the full MS Tax for a retail system is that the vendors of that annoying bloatware are paying Dell a good bit of money to get preloaded on their systems. There's probably more than enough money being paid to Dell to offset the cost of the X3000 and whatever else is in there.

So, with Ubuntu, in essence you're also paying Dell not to screw up your computer with a bunch of garbage before they send it.

As others have said, you've been able to buy Linux and FreeDOS machines from Dell for about 2 years now. It got the exact same level of fanfare back then as it's getting now. It's amazing how the Linux zealots will continuously keep re-labelling the same old news as "new" and announcing it as yet another "turning point".

The only difference is that Dell only used to sell RedHat Enterprise Linux which is actually quite pricey. When you did the math the Linux system was MUCH more expensive than the equivalent Windows XP Professional machine. And it didn't help that the FreeDOS machines were all at the low end as far as capabilities were concerned. They wouldn't sell you a high-end machine with just FreeDOS on it.

So all I can say is "yawn".

And just to be clear, the price difference between the FreeDOS machine (basically NO operating system) and Windows XP Home edition was about $20. So that was essentially what my cost would be to get Windows XP. Heck, who wouldn't go ahead and just pay that "tax" instead of trying to come up with another operating system to run on their machine? Even Linux users would probably like to have it at that price just so that they could run it in a virtual machine if necessary.

I'd like to point out that the GMA 950, while integrated, has hardware acceleration for high-def video. This is the chipset in both my Dell laptop (E1405) and my Dual Core Mac Mini. Both are up to the task when watching anything up to 1080i video (don't have any 1080p sources to try). The 950 mostly suffers in the area of 3D, which should only be important for gamers (and not to troll, but if you're buying a PC to play games on, why are you buying a Linux PC anyway?)

I wonder how much overhead it costs Dell to package and sell these boxes? I think that will determine the overall success of them. If they can break even on it, I'd wager that would be considered victory.

This very question has been asked several times here: Who's the target audience? Savvy techies. The goal has to be to stop you from spending your money elsewhere. If Dell can accomplish that, then they win.

I think a lot of times those of us in the tech industry tend to get 'out of phase' with the average user. It's easy to do. Sometimes I watch my wife surf the net and just marvel at the things she does. It blows my mind.

A computer is nothing more than a tool (or an obstacle) to get to something that a user wants. I think of it like a camera for me (not into photography). I don't want a complex camera with lots of modes and buttons. If the camera becomes an obstacle to what I want -- a photograph -- then it sucks.

So... what does the average user want? Something that isn't an obstacle. An operating system is general purpose and, by being so, it fights a constant battle with performance, configuration, ease-of-use, and security every step of the way. If everything is a compromise, someone will always hate the answer.

I think that's why Mac's newest advertising campaign is such a success. The OS isn't better than Linux/Unix/Windows or anything else. It's just a different set of compromises. But the marketing folks are tapping into the consumer's desire for ultimate ease-of-use.

I hope Dell breaks even.

g

>The OS was always the marginal money maker at MS.

Marginal? The latest 10-Q has the Client division (workstation level OS' only) bringing in $4.2B of the quarterly profit, with the MBD division (*all* of the Office related technologies, and all of Microsoft Dynamics expensive products) bringing in $4.8B of the profit.

You have a *really* fascinating concept of "marginal".

>It's true that the GMA X3000 is more powerful than the GMA 950, but

The question isn't really whether either is good it is whether or not you are paying more for the better one and graphics is one place where you pay some, even if small, premium for 3.6x better performance. The larger point is that the MS tax is not quite as high as it was thought to be.

Why nobody talks about the "Apple Tax"??
Now that Apple sells OS X for the x86 plattform, why should I be forced to buy Apple hardware to run it?
What I want to see is Dell selling machines that come with OS X as one of the options.

>Why nobody talks about the "Apple Tax"??

If you don't like Apple, it's pretty damn easy to avoid paying into their coffers.

If you don't like Microsoft...the situation is much more difficult. The vast majority of hardware options are sold with the assumption that surely you *must* want Windows, and even if you don't...well you must be a pirate anyways, so you still should pay. Even *if* all of the add-ins, spyway and advertisementware that gets clogged onto a Windows PC yielded enough benefit for the hardware maker that Windows was less expensive than no OS at all, that still irritates buyers who don't like that they're automatically helping Microsoft smashout another competitor in yet another industry that they just have to dominate.

As others have mentioned, it's not the first time that Dell have tried to push Linux. It just happens that Michael Dell uses Ubuntu himself, hence Dell having it as an OS option. Much seems to be said about Aero's requirements but my junk PC runs Beryl pretty nicely with even a cheap ATI card.

@Dave Markle: read the terms of your license agreement. MSDN licences are for development and testing only - and for the OS discs, that means testing your built software, you cannot run your regular development environment on there. The only software from MSDN that you're allowed for general business use is Office.

Action Pack is different - you are permitted to use the software for general business use. However, I'm not sure whether you're allowed to install the OS on a bare machine (with no previous Windows licence). Volume License copies are licensed for upgrade only - the machine you use them on must have either an OEM licence, or a full package product (retail box) licence. I'm not sure whether this applies to Action Pack or not.

Action pack includes upgrade licenses. You must be upgrading from a licensed product to use them.

these machines actually have different specs, so it's kinda hard to find exact difference of tax.

when i've equalized FreeDOS (https://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/e510_nseries?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs) and Ubuntu (https://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs) machines, they became to cost 649$ each.

it's a bit harder to do it with Windows machine. after same equalization, it began to cost 729$ -- again 80$ difference. but it additionally has a mouse, and also it appears that X3000 accelerator and modem are built in in mobo, so it has a different mobo. so i suspect actual Windows cost is less than 80$.

Apparently there is another model that you can buy with identical specs between the Linux and Windows versions, and the difference is an even $50. The other 30 on this machine comes from the graphics and various other sundries. Ars Technica mentioned it this morning on one of their Journals I think.

I strongly agree with Rick Cabral.

The average Joe user will first see the $80 price difference, and might buy for that.

Then they'll go back to CompUSA (or any other mass-market computer store), buy the latest game, put the disk in their machine, and discover that Linux isn't Windows.

They'll first complain to CompUSA, then complain everywhere that they can that Dell sold them a lemon.

Whoever is convinced that the time for Linux-for-everyone has arrived should immediately create shrink-wrapped software to sell at big box stores. As far as I can see, that business is still a big gamble.

some people here have weird concepts concerning linux users, some others have no idea about linux and just hold up the microsoft propaganda of 'everything works on windows'.
i have recently tried to buy a computer from dell (desktop, notebook) and i haven't been able to find one without windows.
now not only do i not want to buy a product that i don't use. i also REALLY don't want to PAY for a product that i don't even get. and with microsoft's business practices (remember netscape ?) and annual profit i really don't want microsoft to get my money. especially not with the crap they now put into vista.

as for apple, they have been ahead of microsoft, operating system wise, for years. years ahead actually. and microsoft has been stealing features from apple for decades. and of course made them sound new. (like the oh so new recycle bin that microsoft introduced a decade after apple had it)

as for linux: especially recently linux has become a reasonable alternative to windows. not only did it become much easier to use, it also got all the programs that anyone could ever need (openoffice, firefox, etc.). and all of them free. which is really why i don't know why anyone pays 1,000 dollars for ms office.

g is dead on...

you have been able to buy dell boxes without windows for years
I have several in my office

also note - if it were not for windows (a commoditized OS) the hardware would still cost a gazillion dollars. I know this is an unpopular view in the 'we hate M$' world but it is absolutely true.

Whther MS should continue to profit from it is of course a different question

@ChipUni

This won't happen if Dell makes a modest attempt to market them at the right crowd and emphasizes what they can, and can't do.

Ubuntu machines are clearly not for the gamers, hence the reason for dumping the fancy integrated graphics.

They are suitable for
a: power users
b: people who just want something for word processing and internet surfing
c: people who just want something to run multimedia on

The majority of the difficulties for people using Linux come from the install process and configuration. This is particularly true with Ubuntu which does not ship with any non-Free software including codecs, browser plugins, and other things that people used to windows would miss.

With these things taken care of by Dell, the only differences between the usability of the Linux machine and the Windows one would come down to the availability of software.

Virtually every piece of propriatory software published today is available for Windows. Users generally have to go to the store, shell out a few bucks (a few thousand for some software, like photoshop or maya)and then install it on their own PC at home. For the 'average-joe' noob user, this is just about as daunting a task as any other. (I know I've been asked many times to install something that someone else couldn't figure out how to.) So with Windows both he price and difficulty of new software are definite obstacles.

With the Ubuntu machine however, there is a simple program, which allows users to browse and install hundreds of free programs at no cost and no difficulty. Many of these programs are near or equal in quality to their Windows equivalents. Some are better. OpenOffice is definitely a drop-in replacement for MS Office in most cases, and FireFox is actually what IE7 is meant to imitate. Amarok is definitely better for music listening than WMP or even Winamp (IMO), the Gimp, Inkscape, and Blender are certainly equivalent to Photoshop, and Maya for most uses, and the list goes on and on. Most of the complaints about usability come from people who are already familiar with propriatory version and rely on it to guide their workflow but new users and those willing to take on something different will have very little difficulties.

In addition, there are advantages to the Linux machines besides the price: Linux is far more lightweight than Windows, especially Vista and won't eat up a full gig of memory and it is far more virus resistant, so far as I know, no Linux virus has survived more than few months in the wild (Unix OSs are simply built in a more secure way, Macintosh has the same advantage). Both these are a major plus to even the 'average joe' user who doesn't want his computer churn under the pressure of running Aero or a virus scanner.

So I think there is definitely a market for Linux on Dell but the impetus will be on Dell to properly market it. They will have to emphasize the advantages and be clear about what the machines can't do so that they will be bought by the correct people. So it is certainly possible with this to work but it depends on marketing (which Dell is good at).

frankly, this is kind of a yawner. hasn't walmart been selling lindows boxes for a while now and those boxes aren't exactly setting the world on fire.

dell caters to a general audience and that audience is used to a windows based environment. i would be highly surprised if these ubunutu boxes comprised more than 1% of dell's consumer pc sales.

I don't get the comments about "no mouse, no modem, no software, inferior graphics."

Re: "no mouse:" You've read Jeff's Developers' Bill of Rights, right? You should already have a good mouse and keyboard. :)

Regarding "no modem:" Excuse me, 1995 called. They want their crappy technology back. (I've always wanted to use that meme...)

Regarding "no software:" You're reading a technical blog. It's probably safe to assume you don't really need/want bloatware, least of all MS Works. If you've got an MSDN license and this is entirely a development machine, you're already licensed to put whichever version of Windows on it you want. If your MSDN license is a Universal license, you've got Office, too.

Regarding "inferior graphics:" The GMA 950 runs DWM and Aero. Other than gaming, what more do you need?

Okay, so I'm looking at this from MY point of view, not that of say, my mom. Even so, it'd be nice to buy a machine where the first thing I do with it isn't formatting over a perfectly good Windows license just so I can install my own without all the crap. But then, other than laptops, I build my own anyway.

That does it! I'm not buying anyting new.

astine: OH, that'll get some cheapskates to <I>try</i> linux.

And I suspect most of them, quite rationally, will go buy a retail copy of Vista Home.

(No bloat? Hah. What do you want to bet that install has both KDE <I>and</i> Gnome installed? And runtime bloat gets nice and big once both sets of libs are loaded when someone wants kwhatever in their gnome session or gwhatever in KDE.

And then there's OpenOffice. And the "oh so eleet" Beryl every idiot wants, to be "just like Vista".

Linux and X <I>can be</i> lightweight. But default and typical-end-user installs of Ubuntu? Not so much.

And don't worry about viruses. They'll come (more accurately as trojans, which is a huge source of windows "virus" load anyway) as soon as enough idiots are running linux.

The same <I>utter cluelessness</i> that causes people to download and run a random .exe claiming to be a naked pop-star screensaver in Windows will cause them to do the same thing and "su to root so you can install!" in linux.

I've been watching and aiding complete clueless people install and use linux for far too long to imagine it's a) a good idea for most of them b) actually lightweight the way they use and install it or c) going to save them from themselves.)

At least this will spark more linux driver support!

Apologies if I'm repeating ... I just can't read fast enough to digest everything that's been said previously ...

Another option that the Ubuntu Dell opens up is for people who just want to keep using Windows XP. Granted this only works (legally) if you own a retail copy of Win XP which you uninstall from an old machine and then install on the new one. But I have a friend who is in exactly this situation so it's worth considering. After all Vista is supposedly being replaced in two years, right? Why bother with it if you'll be just as happy with XP in the interim?

There is a still a "Microsoft Tax" of a sort when going this route though. Microsoft has decided that the product key for my friend's copy of XP has been authenticated via the Internet "too many" times. Each time you install it to new hardware you now need to call MS to get the authentication key. It's annoying as hell to have to call and ask permission to use the operating system just because you moved to new hardware. But then that's what being a monopoly is all about, I guess.

-irrational john

Mike Dimmick:

So what? Though your MSDN license can't be your primary workstation, all of my dedicated testing workstations are still subject to the tax.

I'll also say that the MSDN FAQ is pretty contradictory and ridiculous on some of these points. They say that "Designing and writing a program to assist with internal order procurement and distribution" is an appropriate use of the OSes in an MSDN license, but if "a computer using an MSDN-licensed OS is used for any purpose other than development and testing (for example, a developer's primary computer which is also used for corporate email), then a production-use OS license for the computer is required."

That statement's rather ridiculous -- that one would have to actually have two machines just to send an occasional email related to your development work. So if you're doing a build on a dedicated box and you open up sol.exe to pass some time while your app builds, you're in violation of the license agreement.

This is why I don't date chicks who are lawyers.

Actually i believe that Windows is costing Dell more than 80$ which i assume you calculated by a simple subtraction. I say this because Dell signed a deal with canonical for support or at least some knowledge transfer. It would be much more expensive for Dell to try to do things itself, canonical is already in that line of business.

So although a user can get an ubuntu ISO for free, commercial support does cost money and most institutions go for it.

Remember that the business model of free software(freedom) is that software should be free but you can sell support and services.

Regards,
Alaa Salman

OK, this time I actually DID read at least many of the Linux versus Windows argument posts which preceded my post. All I can say is, why on earth do you people even bother? Everyone knows how these threads play out and, frankly, being so predictable they are more than a bit boring.

Most surprising of all ... to me, at least ... is that I did not see anyone raise the possibility of how evolution of the Internet might change the dynamics of the current balance. One of the biggest reasons I'm again reconsidering giving up on Windows and moving to some flavor of Linux is because as time has passed I find I care less about whether or not I can install a given application under a given OS. What I care about is how well I can access the web-based applications I use.

I currently only have a very, very small toe dipped into the pool of web-based apps. Mostly because there is not a to choose from in the way of web-apps at the moment. But, thanks to Google, there are some. and as time passes there will surely be more of them.

Sure Windows dominates now because people still are used to installing apps on their PCs. But when that changes ... and to the extent it does change ... Windows will loose it's monopoly power.

-irrationally john

@Sigivald

You're comparing an Ubuntu, with both Gnome and KDE, Beryl, with OpenOffice, etc, etc, to a plain vanilla XP. Add the typical anti-spyware and MS Office and XP will be heavier. Vista is off the charts. I doubt that the Dell version will have both libs or Beryl pre-installed anyway.

About security, neither Linux nor Windows is foolproof. Windows actually is more apt to protect the users from themselves. However, Unix is far more resistant to hackers and viruses simply because it has so fewer holes and vulnerabilities (none of that activeX garbage for example). OS X, which also targets non-technical 'idiots', also has very few issues of security.

Besides, until Linux becomes far more mainstream, their won't be many viruses or malware for it anyway. When & if it does, this debate will have become moot.

Everybody loves Eric S. Raymond:

https://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=1999-12-19-001-07-NW-SM
--
You have to look at the market from the point of view of a PC integrator. You're paying a fixed Microsoft tax, it varies, depending upon how much Microsoft likes you and how much you co-operate with their party line. Typically it's maybe 80 to 100 dollars per machine. That's something that looks reasonable when the price point of your total systems is around $2500, but when your price point is down around $300, -- it's too much. And this means that as the price of hardware drops, the PC integrators are coming under increasing pressure not to pay the Microsoft tax.
--

Ars Technica's response

https://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070525-windows-tax-is-50-according-to-dell-linux-pc-pricing.html
--
Eric Raymond once famously predicted that when the price of PCs dropped to below $300 that Microsoft would "cease to exist" because nobody would pay an extra one-third of the cost of a computer in order to get Windows. That didn't happen, largely because of the price incentives given by software companies as described above. Whether or not Linux bundling will put pressure on Microsoft's OEM pricing remains to be seen, but it can't hurt.

--

If I am not mistaken . . .

Dell offered linux in 2002-2003 but cancelled it for lack of interest by the market. Back when linux was trying to make a major move to the desktop.

Ubuntu supports alot of laptops and their drivers right out of the box with very little tweaking or configuration (synaptic and apt-get take the fun out of it).
//_works_ on my machine (no seriously, even a noob can do it)

I wonder if dell will preinstall any crapware on ubuntu like the do with windows. It is possible you know.

It depends on your definition of "crapware". Many of us consider OpenOffice, Firefox, and many other open source applications to be "crapware". So yes. They are likely to load the machine with tons of crapware because the typical Linux distro includes a lot of junk that people like me do not need or want. ;)

What's good for the goose is good for the gander...

Matt, ubuntu's choice of software that comes with the os is not to my liking either but I simply meant crapware they are paid to install like toolbars and other garbage.

They may not install crapware on ubuntu in the first generation but if they continue to offer ubuntu they will install it in later versions.

"People always complain about the MS tax in reference to installing other OS's on a machine. What about us MSDN members that are essentially paying for Windows unnecessarily when it is contained in our MSDN memberships? Bah!"

uh...that's stupid. MSDN gave you everything. it is meant for developers. it's like buying a CAR that come with 4 tires. It won't matter if you already own 4 tires. the car is still sold with 4 tires!

Jeff,

I was sort of disappointed that you didn't look in to the pricing and just took a superficial view of it. Because if you really dove in to the support options you would see there is about a 200.00 premium on the Ubuntu option. Basically if you get it for the price you have listed above as soon as you get your computer you are on your own with the operating system.

So this forces all the bargain seekers to get mad, and start saying ignorant things like "Microsoft gives me support but Linux doesn't", or "call Linux because I have a printer problem". The problem is that Dell isn't offering anything they haven't offered before, you have always been able to get a FreeDOS through Small Business, it is just if you went to Small Business and choose FreeDOS as an option you knew what you were getting your self in to. However it is not really apparent with Ubuntu.

I wrote a short article about this at https://coderjournal.com/2007/05/is-there-really-a-microsoft-tax-when-support-is-involved/

Some background on earlier sales of the non-Microsoft OS "FreeDOS" at Dell. Not so free.. and very difficult to find.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/06/dell_open_pc/

I found some interesting articles that's linked to these messes.. xD

>https://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2136181,00.asp
>https://www.devside.net/blog/ubuntu-dying-2
>https://enterpriselinuxlog.blogs.techtarget.com/2007/05/17/why-novell-fan-left-netware-suse-behind/

I'm not sure but most of you might've read these... I'm just sharing info, anyway...

I enjoy this war... haha...

I can totally agree with you that Dell hasn't been the most open about the availability of FreeDOS, but it has always been an option under the operating systems. Personally I am a HP guy for laptops, and customizing their business laptop has always had the FreeDOS option right out in the open.

For a programmers there wasn't much choice.

You can stick with linux and loss any ".net" stuffs (mainly the visual studio). Mono is a choice for put their .net project not for dev.

You can stick with windows but you can loss some customers with it, mainly if you're into support.

Or you can install a dual boot, lossing hd space but having the power of two os.

So, for programmers Windows is a nice choice.

I have a desktop PC tower running Microsoft's Windows XP Professional from 2006. I have customized it just to my liking by adding a DVD burner and an ATI TV Wonder VE capture card (a TV Tuner), I have the software drivers for my DVD burner and TV Tuner installed and they work great. I refuse to upgrade to Vista due to incompatibility issues and I don't want to pay the Microsoft tax ever again for Windows. Aside from that fact I reject Microsoft's End User License Agreement in Vista. I'll never run a newer version of Windows again, I have a retail copy of XP and can use Linux. I have an Apple Mac Mini with Intel Core Duo 1 processor (a 2nd generation Mac Mini) running Mac OS X Tiger (10.4.11) that originally came pre-installed with 10.4.7 that I plan to upgrade to Mac OS X Leopard (10.5) soon.

I still use XP as I said for some tasks but prefer the Mac or running Linux on my PC -- in fact Linux works on Mac too and so does Windows now. The end of the Microsoft tax is a good thing -- but now Microsoft is suggesting that Apple has an Apple tax whether that's true or not the way their saying this is just to scare people away from the Mac. The success of the Macintosh has been good and bad news for Microsoft. It's good for Microsoft's MacBU as most new Mac buyers buy Microsoft software for Mac including Office for Mac but bad for the typical Office and Windows businesses of Microsoft.