PING

APNIC

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PING is a podcast for people who want to look behind the scenes into the workings of the Internet. Each fortnight we will chat with people who have built and are improving the health of the Internet. The views expressed by the featured speakers are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of APNIC.

4D AGO

Kentik's view of Secure BGP in 2025

In this episode of PING, Doug Madory from Kentik discusses his rundown of the state of play in secure BGP across 2024 and 2025. Kentik has it’s own internal measurements of BGP behaviour and flow data across the surface of the internet, which combined with the Oregon University curated routeviews archive means Doug can analyse both the publicly visible state of BGP from archives, and Kentik’s own view of the dynamics of BGP change, along side other systems like the worldwide RPKI model, and the Internet Routing Registry systems. Doug has written about this before on the APNIC Blog in May of 2024. RPKI demands two outcomes, Firstly that the asset holders who control a given range of Internet Address sign an intent regarding who originates it the ROA, and secondly that the BGP speakers worldwide implement validation of the routing they see, known as Route Origin Validation or ROV. ROA signing is easy, and increases very simply if the delegate uses an RIR hosted system to make the signed objects. ROV is not always simple and has to be deployed carefully so has a slower rate of deployment, and more consequence in costs to the BGP speaker. Doug has been tracking both independently, as well as looking at known routing incidents in the default free zone, and therefore the impact on RPKI active networks, and everywhere else.

30 min
JUN 25

Downloading the root

In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist, Geoff Huston, discusses the root zone of the DNS, and some emerging concerns in how much it costs to service query load at the root. In the absence of cacheing, all queries in the DNS (except ones the DNS system you ask is locally authoritative for anyway) have to be sent through the root of the DNS, to find the right nameserver to ask for the specific information. Thanks to cacheing, this system doesn't drown in the load of every worldwide query, all the time, going through the root. But, even taking cacheing into account there is an astronomical amount of query seen at the root, and it has two interesting qualities Firstly, its growing significantly faster than the normal rate of growth of the Internet. We're basically at small incremental growth overall in new users, but query load at the root increases significantly faster, even after some more unexpected loads have been reduced. Secondly, almost all of the queries demand the answer "No, that doesn't exist" and the fact most traffic to the root hunts the answer NO means that the nature of distributed DNS cacheing of negative answers isn't addressing the fundamental burden here. Geoff thinks we may be ignoring some recent developments in proving the contents of a zone, the ZONEMD record which is a DNSSEC signed check on the entire zone contents, and emerging systems to download the root zone, and localise all the queries sent onwards into a copy of the root held in the resolver. Basically, "can we do better" -And Geoff thinks, we very probably can.

58 min
JUN 11

Global Cyber Alliance and measuring the bad traffic

In this episode of PING, We’re talking to Leslie Daigle from the Global Cyber Alliance (GCA) again, discussing GCA’s honeynet project. Leslie spoke with PING back in January 2024, and in this episode we re-visit things. Honeynets (or Honey farms) are deliberately weakly protected systems put online, to see what kinds of bad traffic exist out in the global Internet, where they come from and what kinds of attack they are mounting. In the intervening period GCA has continued to develop its honeyfarm, building out it’s own systems images, and can now capture more kinds of bad traffic. They have also bedded in the MANRS community, which is now supported by GCA worldwide. In this episode, Leslie is actually asking more questions than providing answers. If we accept that there is now a persisting problem at scale, what kinds of approaches do we need to take to “get on top” of bad traffic? It used to be we thought of this in terms of technical solutions but increasingly Leslie feels we now need to broaden the conversation and take this into Public policy and governance communities, to understand what kinds of social cost we can bear, and what socially driven objectives we want to drive to. The problem is, this is one of the tasks technologists are often the least equipped to do: Talk to people. GCA is showcasing the AIDE system, reachable at https://gcaaide.org/ as a way of opening up the conversation with national strategic policy makers, and the wider community. It’s a simple economy & region model summarising the state of honeynet detected bad traffic levels worldwide, and helps to set an agenda with which the individual ISPs and routing-active community can engage, for their locus of control.

34 min
MAY 28

DELEG: Changing the DNS engine in flight again

In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist, Geoff Huston, revisits changes underway in how the Domain Name System (DNS) delegates authority over a given zone and how resolvers discover the new authoritative sources. We last explored this in March 2024. In DNS, the word ‘domain’ refers to a scope of authority. Within a domain, everything is governed by its delegated authority. While that authority may only directly manage its immediate subdomains (children), its control implicitly extends to all subordinate levels (grandchildren and beyond). If a parent domain withdraws delegation from a child, everything beneath that child disappears. Think of it like a Venn diagram of nested circles — being a subdomain means being entirely within the parent’s scope. The issue lies in how this delegation is handled. It’s by way of nameserver (NS) records. These are both part of the child zone (where they are defined) and the parent zone (which must reference them). This becomes especially tricky with DNSSEC. The parent can’t authoritatively sign the child’s NS records because they are technically owned by the child. But if the child signs them, it breaks the trust chain from the parent. Another complication is the emergence of third parties to the delegate, who actually operate the machinery of the DNS. We need mechanisms to give them permission to make changes to operational aspects of delegation, but not to hold all the keys a delegate has regarding their domain name. A new activity has been spun up in the IETF to discuss how to alter this delegation problem by creating a new kind of DNS record, the DELEG record. This is proposed to follow the Service Binding model defined in RFC 9460. Exactly how this works and what it means for the DNS is still up in the air. DELEG could fundamentally change how authoritative answers are discovered, how DNS messages are transported, and how intermediaries interact with the DNS ecosystem. In the future, significant portions of DNS traffic might flow over new protocols, introducing novel behaviours in the relationships between resolvers and authoritative servers.

59 min
MAY 14

DFOH,MVP & GILL: New ways of looking at BGP

In this episode of PING, Professor Cristel Pelsser who holds the chair of critical embedded systems at UCLouvain Discusses her work measuring BGP and in particular the system described in the 2024 SIGCOMM “best paper” award winning research: “The Next Generation of BGP Data Collection Platforms” Cristel and her collaborators Thomas Alfroy, Thomas Holterbach, Thomas Krenc and K. C. Claffy have built a system they call GILL, available on the web at https://bgproutes.io This work also features a new service called MVP, to help find the “most valuable vantage point” in the BGP collection system for your particular needs. GILL has been designed for scale, and will be capable of encompassing thousands of peerings. it also has an innovative approach to holding BGP data, focussed on the removal of demonstrably redundant information, and therefore significantly higher compression of the data stream compared to e.g. holding MRT files. The MVP system exploits machine learning methods to aide in the selection of the most advantageous data collection point reflecting a researchers specific needs. Application of ML methods here permits a significant amount of data to be managed and change reflected in the selection of vantage points. Their system has already been able to support DFOH, an approach to finding forged origin attacks from peering relationships seen online in BGP, as opposed to the peering expected both from location, and declarations of intent inside systems like peeringDB.

37 min
APR 30

The multiple ways to do multiple paths

In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist, Geoff Huston, discusses the history and emerging future of how Internet protocols get more than the apparent link bandwidth by using multiple links and multiple paths. Initially, the model was quite simple, capable of handling up to four links of equal cost and delay reasonably well, typically to connect two points together. At the time, the Internet was built on telecommunications services originally designed for voice networks, with cabling laid between exchanges, from exchanges to customers, or across continents. This straightforward technique allowed the Internet to expand along available cable or fibre paths between two points. However, as the system became more complex, new path options emerged, and bandwidth demands grew beyond the capacity of individual or even equal-cost links, increasingly sophisticated methods for managing these connections had to be developed. An interesting development at the end of this process is the impact of a fully encrypted transport layer on the intervening infrastructure’s ability to manage traffic distribution across multiple links. With encryption obscuring the contents of the dataflow, traditional methods for intelligently splitting traffic become less effective. Randomly distributing data can often worsen performance, as modern techniques rely on protocols like TCP to sustain high-speed flows by avoiding data misordering and packet loss. This episode of PING explores how Internet protocols boost bandwidth by using multiple links and paths, and how secure transport layers affect this process.

46 min
APR 16

Pulse Internet Measurement Forum at APRICOT 2025: Part 2

Last month, during APRICOT 2025 / APNIC 59, the Internet Society hosted its first Pulse Internet Measurement Forum (PIMF). PIMF brings together people interested in Internet measurement from a wide range of perspectives — from technical details to policy, governance, and social issues. The goal is to create a space for open discussion, uniting both technologists and policy experts. In this second special episode of PING, we continue our break from the usual one-on-one podcast format and present a recap of why the PIMF forum was held, and the last 3 short interviews from the workshop. First we hear a repeat of Amreesh Phokeer's presentation. Amreesh is from the Internet Society and discusses his role in managing the Pulse activity within ISOC. Alongside Robbie Mitchell, Amreesh helped organize the forum, aiming to foster collaboration between measurement experts and policy professionals. Next we hear from Beau Gieskens, a Senior Software Engineer from APNIC Information Products. Beau has been working on the DASH system and discusses his PIMF presentation on a re-design to an event-sourcing model which reduced database query load and improved speed and scaling of the service. We then have Doug Madory from Kentik who presented to PIMF on a quirk in how Internet Routing Registries or IRR are being used, which can cause massive costs in BGP filter configuration and is related to some recent route leaks being seen at large in the default free zone of BGP. Finally, we hear from Lia Hestina from the RIPE NCC Atlas project. Lia is the community Development officer, and focusses on Asia Pacific and Africa for the Atlas project. Lia discusses the Atlas system and how it underpins measurements worldwide, including ones discussed in the PIMF meeting. For more insights from PIMF, be sure to check out the PULSE Forum recording on the Internet Society YouTube feed

41 min
APR 2

DNS Computer says "NO"

In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist, Geoff Huston, discusses the surprisingly vexed question of how to say ‘no’ in the DNS. This conversation follows a presentation by Shumon Huque at the recent DNS OARC meeting, who will be on PING in a future episode talking about another aspect of the DNS protocol. You would hope this is a simple, straightforward answer to a question, but as usual with the DNS, there are more complexities under the surface. The DNS must indicate whether the labels in the requested name do not exist, whether the specific record type is missing, or both. Sometimes, it needs to state both pieces of information, while other times, it only needs to state one. The problem is made worse by the constraints of signing answers with DNSSEC. There needs to be a way to say ‘no’ authoritatively, and minimize the risk of leaking any other information. NSEC3 records are designed to limit this exposure by making it harder to enumerate an entire zone. Instead of explicitly listing ‘before’ and ‘after’ labels in a signed response denying a label’s existence, NSEC3 uses hashed values to obscure them. In contrast, the simpler NSEC model reveals adjacent labels, allowing an attacker to systematically map out all existing names — a serious risk for domain registries that depend on name confidentiality. This is documented in RFC 7129. Saying ‘no’ with authority also raises the question of where signing occurs — at the zone’s centre (by the zone holder) or at the edge (by the zone server). These approaches lead to different solutions, each with its own costs and consequences. In this episode of PING, Geoff explores the differences between a non-standard, vendor-explored solution, and the emergence of a draft standard in how to say ‘no’ properly.

44 min

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5

out of 5

4 Ratings

Excellent and insightful dissection of the Facebook outage

10/31/2021

Symgryph

This is an excellent discussion of the fab failure.

PING is a podcast for people who want to look behind the scenes into the workings of the Internet. Each fortnight we will chat with people who have built and are improving the health of the Internet. The views expressed by the featured speakers are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of APNIC.

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APNIC
Years Active

2021 - 2025
Episodes

50
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Clean
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PING

Kentik's view of Secure BGP in 2025

Downloading the root

Global Cyber Alliance and measuring the bad traffic

DELEG: Changing the DNS engine in flight again

DFOH,MVP & GILL: New ways of looking at BGP

The multiple ways to do multiple paths

Pulse Internet Measurement Forum at APRICOT 2025: Part 2

DNS Computer says "NO"

Ratings & Reviews

Excellent and insightful dissection of the Facebook outage

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PING

Episodes

Kentik's view of Secure BGP in 2025

Downloading the root

Global Cyber Alliance and measuring the bad traffic

DELEG: Changing the DNS engine in flight again

DFOH,MVP & GILL: New ways of looking at BGP

The multiple ways to do multiple paths

Pulse Internet Measurement Forum at APRICOT 2025: Part 2

DNS Computer says "NO"

Ratings & Reviews

About

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